sudaevpps43
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Posts posted by sudaevpps43
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does that mean the vepr is tougher?
Well since an RPK receiver is thicker than an AK receiver, an RPK receiver is stronger than an AK receiver in the same way that say a 6x6" wooden beam is stronger than a 4x4" wooden beam, but then an RPK receiver is also heavier than an AK receiver, adding weight to the firearm (for the same cartridge chamberings and equal barrel lengths, a Vepr rifle typically weighs around at least a pound and a half more than a Saiga rifle). Molot makes Veprs using RPK style receivers because that is what the Molot factory is tooled up to make, not because there is really any inherent advantage to using an RPK receiver over an AK receiver in the role of a shoulder fired self-loading rifle or shotgun.
The RPK light machinegun was designed the way it was (as a squad support weapon not as an assault rifle) because it needed to have a greater range than an AK (longer barrel to increase bullet velocity which increases range), would on average fire more rounds during combat than an AK (thicker heavier barrel enables more rounds to be fired before overheating), and unlike an AK which would usually be fired from the shoulder, the RPK would almost always be fired on the ground from the bipod mounted at the end of it's barrel (wider front trunnion and thicker receiver with a pocket for the front trunnion was to better support the longer and heavier barrel and the weight forces acting on the RPK, which in the firing position was like a beam being supported at just its two ends, one end by the bipod and the other end by the shooter).
So in strictly technical terms the Vepr has a stronger receiver than an AK, but as proven by decades of use the AK receiver is definitely more than strong enough to be used in a long arm that will be fired from the shoulder, while also weighing less than a firearm made with an RPK type receiver. Of course the weight difference between a Vepr and a Saiga, while noticeable, is not drastic and so some don't mind the extra weight of a Vepr when compared to a Saiga. Interestingly, from those I have heard of who prefer Veprs over Saigas they say their main reason for preferring the Vepr is just that it has a better fit and finish from the factory than the Saiga does. Of course if you are in the U.S. it's all a moot point since all we can currently get here are Saigas (though there were some Vepr rifles imported back in the early 2000s).
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In a nutshell Saiga rifles and shotguns are based on the regular Kalashnikov assault rifle (i.e. AK pattern) design, while Vepr rifles and shotguns are based on the light-machinegun version (i.e. RPK pattern) of the Kalashnikov assault rifle. The main differences between the AK and RPK being that the RPK has a longer and thicker barrel, a wider front trunnion with a larger barrel opening to accomodate the thicker barrel, and a thicker receiver with a pocket at the front to accomodate the wider front trunnion. Incidentally, because of differences to the receiver and barrel, the AK and RPK use different forearms and buttstocks which are not interchangeable with one another (though the pistol grips of the AK and RPK are interchangeable).
In case you were wondering why the Saiga and Vepr are based on different versions of the Kalashnikov, as WaffenSchmied mentioned it is because they are made at different factories. Saigas are made at Izhmash, and Veprs are made at Molot.
During Soviet times all Soviet military small arms production, including of course production of the Kalashnikov series, was done at three state run factories, Izhmash, Tula, and Molot. Under the Soviet system of specialization and centralization of production, each of the three factories was assigned to produce a particular variant of the Kalashnikov. Izhmash made all the assault rifle (AK) variants of the Kalashnikov, Tula made the specialized short-barreled (AKS-74U) variant, and Molot made all the light-machinegun (RPK) variants of the Kalashnikov. So each factory was tooled up to only make its own specific variant of the AK.
Fast-forward to the end of the cold war and the collapse of the Soviet Union, and Izhmash, Tula, and Molot became (for a while at least) independent companies no longer under state control, and they were each now free to design, put into production, and sell their own designs. Naturally any new firearms designs they came up with, were usually ones that could be made using the machinery and tooling each of the factories had already been set up with from the Soviet era. So when Izhmash started making self-loading rifles and shotguns based on the Kalashnikov design, they were based on the regular AK pattern. While when Molot started making their Kalashnikov type self-loading rifles and shotguns, they were of course instead based on the RPK pattern (by the way, Tula so far hasn't put any shotguns into production, or built any Kalashnikov pattern firearms other than the AKS-74U they have always made). Incidentally Izhmash now also owns Molot. A year or two ago Izhmash filed suit in a Russian court claiming they had exclusive patent rights on the Kalashnikov design. The Russian court agreed and ordered Molot to pay a settlement to Izhmash which was of an amount that Molot couldn't afford, so Molot was forced to transfer its assets (i.e. the Molot factory) to Izhmash to cover the settlement. In the end all it really amounted to was Molot now being owned and run by the same people who own and run Izhmash (I have no idea what the situation between Izhmash and Tula is, just that Tula is still definitely in business).
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Cmon Nailoth.. What was he going to say? "Oh no they don't have any mags for it yet that can hold more bullets than your typical mag?"
It's a high capacity mag.. deal with it.. Just because the anti gunners try to use them to ban guns doesn't mean we should be afraid to use the term.. It's just easier to say than "magazine with lots of bullets"
....... I'll call a semi automatic an assault rifle with no qualms if it's a military black gun (designed for.. uhh assault!).......I'll also call a high cap mag a high cap......It's not like appealing to their wording slows the bastards intent.
RANT ON
I'm gonna have to go with Nalioth on this and disagree with that. To me that is a siege mentality, which is not good enough for securing our self-defense rights in the long term. You're right in that it's pretty much impossible to change an anti's mindset, since it's an illogical mindset devoid of even basic common sense (let alone reason) to begin with, and that we will never be able to deter or slow the efforts of individual anti's who are so far gone as to actually believe eliminating self-defense rights is the right thing to do. But I definitely don't think we should be helping the anti's speed up their mindless crusade either, which IMHO is in effect what happens any time terms the anti's made up are used to describe anything firearm related.
Let's say the anti's decided to start calling the 2nd amendment the 'arming criminals amendment', you wouldn't be fine with that and start using that name from then on as the standard name for the 2nd amendment would you?
Magazines which hold significantly more rounds than a six-shooter have been around since World War I (the snail drums used on Luger pistols for example), and were quite common as soon as World War II (the Browning HP, M1 carbine, and virtually all WWII era submachineguns used double-stack magazines), and yet it wasn't until the mid-1980s that the term 'high capacity magazine' appeared. The mid-1980s was also when (with the 1934 NFA and 1968 GCA having been the intermediate steps) the anti's started their big push on banning firearms outright at the federal level, but that must have just been a coincidence, right?
Short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, destructive device, sporting purposes, high-capacity magazine, assault weapon, etc., are all terms that didn't exist until those whose goal was to destroy self-defense rights came along. These made-up names were part of the anti's multi-step propaganda strategy that would have made Joseph Goebbels proud. The first step was to make up fake names with inherently negative connotations for firearms and firearms parts. The second step was to keep repeating these fake negative sounding-names in public speeches, in the news, and everywhere else until people at large started using them as well (the whole 'If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.' phrase Goebbels coined). The third and final step of course then being to demand the lawmakers ban these firearms and firearms parts with the made-up negative sounding names, since after all only a criminal would want such firearms, because everyone knows that things like short-barreled shotguns, short-barreled rifles, assault weapons, and high capacity magazines can only be used for criminal purposes, right?
Like Nalioth I'm just a bit old-fashioned in that I just don't care to use the deliberately negative sounding names that the anti's had made up for their propaganda, and I instead prefer to refer to firearms and their parts by their actual/factual type names. A Saiga 12 is a self-loading shotgun with magazines available in capacities of 2, 5, 8, 10, 12, and 20 rounds, an AR-15 is a self-loading rifle whose magazines usually hold 20, 30, or more rounds, and an M-16 is a machinegun (though assault rifle could of course also be used to describe an M-16, since the name 'assault rifle' just means a specific type of machinegun). Calling a Saiga 12 an 'assault shotgun', or an AR-15 an 'assault rifle', and saying they use 'high-capacity magazines', is not just incorrect as far as the word definitions go, it is also IMHO directly boosting the anti's mindless message, whether the person using such names intended to or not. An AR-15 is incapable of fully automatic fire, and so by definition is not a machinegun nor an assault rifle, so why would an AR-15 ever be called an assault rifle or an assault weapon? An AR-15 is a 'self-loading rifle' which is a good 'self-defense arm'.
Though I guess I should confess I sometimes make up names myself. For example I call 5-round Mini-14, 10 round Glock 17, and 10 round AR-15 magazines 'under-capacity magazines'. Of course according to the anti's this is the incorrect way to go about naming a firearm part, since such a name is a factual description rather than a deliberately negative and misleading name. So I guess form now on I will instead refer to 5-round Mini-14, 10 round Glock 17, and 10 round AR-15 magazines as 'unsafe child-death enabling magazines that still holds too many cartridges bullets' (can't forget to also use the standard ignorant 'anti-gun' method of saying 'bullets' even when actually referring to cartridges).
RANT OFF
Anyway back on topic, between the Saiga 12 and the new 12 gauge AR that ATI will start importing soon, I think CMMG is well aware they won't ever be price competitive with shotguns made in Russian and Turkey, where labor costs are just a bit less (okay a lot less) than they are in the USA. My guess is that CMMG will try to pull a Bushmaster, and spend the next couple years redesigning their shotgun in the hope of incorporating some feature the Saiga 12 and ATI's 12 gauge AR don't have (maybe fully ambidexterous controls, or maybe a multi-cartridge capability like being able to swap out a 12 gauge upper for a .410 or 20 gauge upper), and then when they finally get around to bringing it to market it will cost at least $2500, but CMMG will say it's a 'high-end' shotgun (ah more word games) and worth the price.
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So did CMMG display that 12 gauge AR shotgun at the SHOT show again this year? I know they had it on display at the 2009 SHOT show, but I hadn't heard they had brought it out again for the 2010 SHOT show (in fact I hadn't heard anything about it since the 2009 SHOT show).
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Hi guys, Do you think the SAIGA (Converted or Unconverted) is reliable enough to be used for Home Defense?
Edited: FYI: I have 3 that I have converted! Yes three and I love all three of them. But I am just wondering, as that's the gun I leave accessible for my wife when I go out of town on buz.
Well the way I look at it, the russian army has very demanding standards with regards to firearms reliability, and they use the Saiga 12, and so if the Saiga 12 is reliable enough for the russian army, then I would say it's more than reliable enough for home defense.
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...in the shotshell? Am I right in thinking that double-ought makes for a more compact load (in 3-ball layers) than does triple-ought?
Correct, the smaller the shot pellet the less empty space between the individual shot pellets when they are stacked into the shotshell, and so smaller diameter buckshot pellets are more space efficient. However this is more a technical advantage than a practical one, since usually for a given shell length the total weight of buckshot that can be put in it will be about the same regardless of what size of buckshot is used. Though if for whatever reason you want just a particular number of buckshot pellets in your shotshell and are unconcerned with the buckshot size or total weight of the shot, then of course a smaller size of buckshot would enable the same number of pellets to be used while reducing the overall shell length.
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What kind of stock and cheek riser is that?
It's an Izhmash factory SVDS-type Saiga 12 stock. This stock is basically identical to the SVDS buttstock that Izhmash puts on their SVDS rifles, except is has a left side hinge installed instead of a right-side hinge, and it also has a metal tab riveted to the butt-plate to catch the front retaining catch when the stock is folded. The cheek pad is non-removable (at least not without taking the stock apart) but is rotatable, so it can just be rotated out of the way when using iron sights, and then rotated back up when using an optic.
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Ok, I was on K-VAR's website looking at their SGL21 series and noticed they came with either the Nato length or the Warsaw length buttstock. Could someone enlighten me as to the difference, pro's and con's? Is one better than the other?
The Warsaw and NATO AK buttstocks are identical except for their length, so there aren't really any pros or cons between them aside from whether you would prefer a longer or shorter buttstock. Personally I like slightly longer buttstocks, so when I restored my Saiga 12 I went with the NATO length K-Var buttstock. On a side-note, I also like the K-Var buttstocks for their look and their trapdoor compartment in the buttplate (for storing a standard AK cleaning kit like the one that comes with every Saiga 12) which makes them virtually identical to the original Russian buttstocks. The Tapco AK buttstocks cost a little less than the K-Vars, but they have a slightly different shape than the original Russian buttstocks, and they don't have the trap-door storage compartment either. One last thing, if you plan to put a recoil pad on your stock, then you might then prefer the Warsaw length buttstock since the total length of pull won't be increased as much after the recoil pad has been added. I use a recoil pad on the NATO length buttstock I have on my Saiga 12 and like it just fine, but again I prefer a bit longer feel on a buttstock. Of course someone with your height would probably prefer a longer stock no matter what anyway.
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After seeing csspecs post about about his 8 round mag and I realized that making a mag was something that I could do.
The 3 gun matches I did this summer seemed to mostly run around 10 - 11 shots per section. So my AGPs were a little small. Somewhere on this board I remember reading that when they used to make the Frankenstein mags that they would only go up to 15 rounds so I started there. I have shot about 100 rounds with no issues after getting the machined tabs right. I will try for a 20 rd or larger mag with 2 mag springs later.
Fantastic, not that many people can make a mag from scratch, let alone make a mag that actually works as reliably as a factory mag. Out of curiousity (and if you don't mind answering), how many man-hours total would you guess you spent to make this mag?
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Well it does look like one of Tony's S19 type Saiga 12 conversions, but unless anyone can read the serial number off of the picture so Tony could check it against his records, it seems like it would be impossible to say for sure whether it is an authentic Tromix conversion or not.
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well theres u some 10 rounders with a metal lip
Yes currently all Saiga 12 magazines, except the Surefire magazines, have metal feed lips, but only the russian box magazines and the MD-20 drum have a metal front locking tab.
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Glass filled nylon count as a polymer?
Well nylon is a polymer, though since the nylon AGP uses to make their mags is glass reinforced, if you wanted to be more specific it could be called glass-reinforced polymer as well.
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Ever wonder why Mike has never came out with a 3 inch drum? Perhaps because the same thing would happen? Lot of stress on plastic when the 3 inch magnum shells start kicking especially if the mag/drum is long and heavy to begin with.
JMO
Drum magazines for the Saiga 12 can be made to work with either 2-3/4" or 3" shells but not both (similar to how the Saiga 20's box magazines are made in two different variations, those for 2-3/4" shells and those for 3" shells). Mike made the MD-20 to handle 2-3/4" shells simply because 2-3/4" ammo is more popular than 3" ammo for the 12 gauge. Also, Mike has said that he will eventually be making a 3" drum at some point, but right now he is of course focused on bringing his double-stack box magazines to market.
Unlike the polymer Saiga 12 box magazines made by AGP, Promag, and Surefire, the MD-20 drum has a steel front mag catch, just like the russian 5 & 8 round box magazines do, and in fact the MD-20 is currently the only U.S. made polymer Saiga 12 magazine that does have a steel front mag catch. As with the russian box magazines, I have never heard of the front mag catch breaking off a MD-20 drum. Numerous end-users (which include many members of this forum) have used their MD-20 with high base 2-3/4" buckshot and slug ammo (which has nearly as much recoil as 3" ammo) without any problem. I have no doubt that when Mike starts making a 3" drum that it will likewise be able to handle any heavy-recoiling ammo as well.
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Hey take it easy on the newbie, he was just a little over-enthusiastic, that's all.
Are the dragonov style stocks considered a pistol grip? I'm in ny and would like to know if it would br legal to install one. we have messed up laws here.
Anyway ny rifleman the answer to your question is that a Saiga 12 with a thumb-hole type stock (like dragunov type stocks) is legal in New York state (though not in New York City of course, unless you know a politician or police chief you can bribe), and in fact some New York members of this forum have put thumb-hole/dragunov type stocks on their Saiga 12s, to make them look something like this:
(Picture courtesy of forum member RalphXL.)
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Hello new to the forum and saiga shotguns. I just bought a new 24 inch shotgun ( wanted to use it for clay piegons and small game) reading on the forum that there may be issues with 12 gauge shotguns with only 2 ports . I think mine only has 2 ports , havent had time to shoot it yet. Does anyone have any info on this issue and if it does have a problem would a new gas plug help me . Thanks for any info
You are fine, 2 ports is perfectly normal for a 24" barreled Saiga 12. It is the 19" barreled Saiga 12s that are supposed to have 3 ports (a few were even made with 4 ports), and which have cycling problems if they were instead made with just 2 ports (these are the so called 'vodka specials').
In case you were wondering why the 24" and 19" barreled Saiga 12s have a different number of ports, it has to do with the distance the end of the barrel is from the gas block, and getting the optimal amount of gas to the piston (inside the gas block). If too little gas reaches the piston then there can be cycling problems. If too much gas reaches the piston then the bolt carrier cycles with too much velocity and hits the rear of the receiver too hard, causing needless and excessive wear and tear that will actually damage the Saiga 12 in the long term. How much gas reaches the gas piston depends on the distance the end of the barrel is from the gas block (the greater the distance the more time gas has to get vented from the barrel to the gas block), as well as of course the number and diameter of gas ports. So a 19" barreled Saiga 12 has three gas ports because if it had less then it might have trouble cycling. Whereas a 24" barreled Saiga 12 has just two gas ports, because more gas ports would make it overgassed, causing its bolt carrier to cycle back with too much velocity.
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Just got a Saiga the othe day and became aware of 922r. I modded a Hawk Model 981 awhile back with no knowleadge and now am looking for the BATFE around every corner..........
As Saigafreake mentioned you've got nothing to worry about. 922r only applies to self-loading (semi-automatic) rifles and shotguns, it does not apply to manually operated longarms (bolt action, break-open action, lever action, pump action, etc.), so your Hawk 981 is legal no matter what parts you install on it.
The law says semi-auto rifle or ANY shotgun..........I'm confused.
922r was pretty much written to be as confusing as possible, and you are correct in that the first line of code 922r does say "..any shotgun..", but if you read 922r in its entirety you will see that it doesn't actually define "any shotgun" as meaning just any shotgun, but rather 922r actually defines "any shotgun" to instead specifically mean shotguns that are prohibited from importation under section 925d3.
Now section 925d3 just says that a “non-sporting” firearm (be it handgun, rifle, or shotgun) cannot be imported, but 925d3 doesn't actually give a technical definition of what “non-sporting” is, and instead effectively says that “non-sporting” means whatever the U.S. attorney general decides it to mean.
So then you also have to look at a regulation the ATF came up with, which is ATF regulation 478.39, titled "Assembly of semiautomatic rifles or shotguns", which says that no one can assemble a firearm defined as “non-sporting” under section 925d3 from imported parts if they use more than 10 of the 20 parts the ATF also lists in regulation 478.39.
Then finally you go to the ATF explanation of section 922r and regulation 478.39, which states a violation of 922r will occur if a non-sporting "semiautomatic rifle or shotgun" is assembled using more than 10 imported parts.
So when it comes to shotguns 922r definitely does apply only to self-loading (semiautomatic) shotguns.
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went to a local pawn shop( in north ga) this morning he had two new saiga'12s for 659 each, is that a decent price for retail or not
As many others have mentioned, definitely not, but then pawn shops are rarely ideal places to find good deals on popular models of firearms. You should try to some regular guns stores instead, and also of course check the web. Most on-line vendors are selling Saiga 12s for around $500 these days, though of course shipping and FFL transfer fees (which will usually add around $35 to $50 to the final price) are usually not included, so if you can find a Saiga 12 at a local gunstore for around $550, that would be a decent price.
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I understand the "sporting" configuration BS. So it's just that Saiga and Molot aren't exporting "sporting" versions with the self-regulating gas system, not that they're prohibited from doing so by U.S. law. I'm pretty sure the first U.S. company to bring a retro-fit self-regulating gas system to market would make a killing, especially if they copy the Russian FS/GB combo. Too bad we can't get an importer to bring the proper parts through Germany or something ...
I think the only way we in the U.S. would get a self-regulating gas system for the Saiga 12 is if a U.S. company started making self regulating gas system parts specifically for the Saiga 12. From what I've heard the Molot and Izhmash shotguns that have the self-regulating gas system, namely the Vepr 12 and KS-K, are a little different in design from the Saiga 12 (barrel diameter is a little different, and gas tube and front trunnion design are different as well), so the parts that make up the self-regulating gas system on a Vepr 12 or KS-K (like the front-sight/gas-block) will not fit on a Saiga 12.
Of course the simplest thing would be for Izhmash or Molot to just make a KS-K or Vepr 12 with a fixed monte-carlo type stock and no pistol grip, and then they could be imported into the U.S. (though only with 5 round mags instead of the usual 8 rounders). I suspect though that Izhmash (which also owns Molot) believes the Saiga 12 gives them a bigger profit margin on the U.S. market than the KS-K or Vepr 12 would, and so they see no reason to export KS-Ks or Vepr 12s to the U.S., because if that wasn't the case then it seems like Izhmash would have already started exporting 'sporterized' KS-Ks and Vepr 12s to the U.S. a while ago.
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I'm new to Saiga's but not to the AK platform and I'm wondering, just out of curiosity - If Izhmash and Molot have self-regulating gas systems on the Russian versions of their shotguns, why don't we have them here in the U.S.? Is this a design we can't import here? Is it new technology that we haven't caught up to yet? Is there something in the mechanics of the Russian version Saiga 12 that prohibits it from working with the shotguns that we can import? Isn't a self-regulating gas system something that we could replicate? I'm sure it would take some investment to do it but seems to me with the multitude of talent on this forum alone that we could come up with a workable solution ...
In order for a foreign made self-loading longarm (rifle or shotgun) to be importable into the U.S., it must be in what the ATF deems a 'sporting' configuration (which has no real meaning and was basically just something made up by politicians, but the ATF takes it to mean things like no pistol grips, no folding stocks, etc.). Izhmash makes a version of their Saiga 12 with a manually adjustable gas valve which is in such a 'sporting' configuration and hence importable. Currently though neither Izhmash nor Molot make a 'sporting' version of their self-regulating Vepr 12 and Saiga 12 shotguns, and hence right now we don't get any Vepr 12 or Saiga 12 shotguns with self-regulating gas systems in the U.S., though if Izhmash or Molot ever do made a Vepr 12 or Saiga 12 with a self-regulating gas system in a sporting configuration, then they could be imported.
As has been stated some in the U.S. have mulled over making a self-regulating gas system for the Saiga 12s that can be imported, but so far no manufacturer has decided to bring such a thing to market (at least not yet).
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Thank you much. I have a friend oversea who just bought a Molot. He said he haing problem with FTE except the last round. I told him it could be that he didn't hold the gun tight against the shoulder?? He also said same thing happen with three different shooters. Any idea?
Is his Vepr 12 brand new, and how many rounds has he fired through it since purchasing it? I am in the U.S. and have never fired a Vepr 12 since we can only get Saiga 12s here, but sometimes a brand new Saiga 12 has to be broken in and have a couple hundred rounds run though it first before it cycles consistently, so it may be the same with Vepr 12s as well.
Another possibility is that the ammo your friend is using may just not have enough power to reliably cycle his Vepr 12, and so there just isn't enough gas pressure to drive the bolt carrier back with enough velocity to reliably eject the shells. What sort of 12 gauge ammo is your friend shooting (birdshot, buckshot, or slugs), and what is the shell length (70mm, 73mm or 76mm) of these shells? If he has not tried it already, your friend should try some 76mm shells (preferably buckshot or slugs), to see if higher powered ammo like this will reliably eject and cycle his Vepr 12.
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I've never heard about that mag issue befor with a russian 5 rounder...
Sounds like a follower issue...
Agreed, since victory1st's top four rounds (which feed off of the round beneath them) always feed just fine, and its always the fifth round (which feeds off the follower) that is jamming, it sounds the follower is tilting (rather than staying level) when the fifth round is stripped by the bolt. Another possibility (though probably less likely) is that the magazine spring is a little under powered, and so while it might have sufficient tension when the mag has at least a couple of shells in it, it won't quite push up on the follower with enough force to hold the fifth round securely against the feed lips by the time the bolt comes back to strip it. Which might also explain why sometimes when the bolt goes forward on the fifth round it fails to strip it and instead closes on an empty chamber with the fifth round still in the magazine (i.e. the spring isn't pushing the last round up fast enough to get stripped by the bolt).
victory1st, do you have any other Russian 5 round mags available which you could exchange the follower or spring with in this mag? Then you could at least narrow down whether the problem is the follower or the spring.
victory1st, also I don't know if were already aware or not, but if you want to install a Russian or Bulgarian folding stock (either triangle or polymer) in your Saiga 12, then in addition to the side-folder stock you would also need an AK side-folding stock rear trunnion and all its related retaining hardware (rear retaining hardware and front retaining hardware). Then of course you would need to de-rivet the existing rear trunnion from your Saiga 12, and then rivet in the side-folding stock rear trunnion, and also cut a small catch window and pivot pin hole in the front of the receiver for the front retaining hardware. Also, you can't mix Russian and Bulgarian stocks and rear trunnions, because the Russian version uses a 5.5mm diameter hinge, while the Bulgarian use a 4.5mm diameter hinge.
If you want a folding stock it's definitely much easier to just cut off the rear tang and install a Tromix/Ace compatible folding stock hinge block instead. Also finding a Russian or Bulgarian side-folding stock and rear trunnion is becoming pretty difficult these days, so you may have trouble even finding one, whereas Tromix/Ace folding stock hinges, and the various stock that work with them, are readily available.
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I love the idea of steel mags, but have a question.
In the world of the AR, polymer P-Mags (and the like) are far preferred over the steel box mags. They say that the P-Mags are more reliable and durable (I have both for my AR, and at this point really don't notice any difference between them, but I'm new to all this).
For the S-12, all we have are factory and aftermarket polymer mags. Why would steel mags be preferable?
Six of one, half-dozen of the other. A well made magazine, whether made of steel or polymer, will have all the durability required. The general shift of some manufacturers to polymer mags is mainly due to minor advantages in weight, ease of maintenance, and long term production costs, not durability. Polymer is lighter than steel and of course polymer can't rust, and while the cost to set up a polymer part fabrication line is usually a bit more than setting up a steel part fabrication line, once set up a polymer part fabrication line can usually produce a part at a lower per unit cost than a steel part fabrication line (that's why a new Glock 17 is always cheaper than a new Beretta 92 or Sig-Sauer 226).
Of course it depends on the manufacturer as well. If a manfuacturer is already experienced in polymer manufacturing and tooled up to make polymer parts, then of course it would be cheaper for them to make any new products in polymer as well. Whereas if a manufacturer is instead experienced in and tooled up to make steel parts (like Chaos is), then it would be cheaper for them to make any new products out of steel rather than polymer.
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I also saw that someone was making us made S12 barrels a while back, I forget who...
I think they were rifled though?
Last year there was a U.S. based company (who used to be a business member here) who had said they would be making regular smoothbore Saiga 12 barrels at some point, but they still haven't started making them yet.
Back last October Tony Rumore of Tromix said he would try making a rifled Saiga 12 barrel soon. Knowing how backlogged he is though, I doubt he has had time to do it yet.
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May I ask Is the Molot has no adjustable gas plug and how it work?
Thanks
The Vepr 12 made by Molot (upper shotgun in below picture) doesn't need a manually adjustable gas plug because it uses a self-regulating gas system instead. Incidentally, the KS-K made by Izhmash (lower shotgun in below picture) also uses a self-regulating gas system and likewise doesn't have a gas plug either.
Folding stock latch
in Saiga-12
Posted
Just so we are clear on what you are installing and what you need, which type of side-folding stock are you installing, a Tromix/Ace style folder or a Russian/Bulgarian style folder, and which latch do you need? The Tromix/Ace stocks have a single latch built into the hinge, while the Russian/Bulgarian type stocks have two separate latches (one latch installed in the rear trunnion to retain the stock in the unfolded position, and one latch installed on the left side of the receiver above and towards the front of the magazine well to retain the stock in the folded position). As Saigafreake mentioned you can get the front retaining catch for a Russian/Bulgarian style folder from AK builder (AK builder only carries the front latch though, not the rear latch).