Gunfixr
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Posts posted by Gunfixr
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I currently have two S12s with just such a setup in the shop now for conversion, although one has been finished, and the other will be here shortly. They will be gone soon.
They both do have side guildes, sort of a magwell.
No, I didn't do them. The fellow who did more than likely won't be doing any more, as he has suffered a serious injury, and can't do much now.
I haven't yet decided whether or not I will do any. I do think it needs a bit of improvement, although it works as is.
The mags require no modifications. Drums won't work, but should if the guides on either side were removed.
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Nate, I recall our e-mails at the time. I personally didn't think there was much of market/need and had other things on my plate at the time so it got shelved like many of my other designs. Recently, I was in the midst of moving my shop and stumbled upon an old wadded up yellow pad that had Bob and I's design on it. I dusted it off and made up a few....and fuck, the thing actually works. I need to test it some more before we run them. There is a huge difference in gas regulating a 19" gun and regulating an eight incher. This thing was designed specifically to soften up the gas slap coming off 3" shells in an 8" Tromix S-17.
Whether or not it will help an under-gassed gun, I don't know. That wasn't part of the design criteria at the time and I haven't tested it in that arena.
Tony
Yeah, at the time,I wasn't really thinking about the short guns. Mostly, it was about more efficiency, and the ability to adjust without tools.
My new one is also a bypass design. I have one, 2 actually, but a newer prototype, and there is the rub. It works in a regular gun, but put it in a short gun, and it's spotty. Still tinkering. I don't have much time to mess with it, though. Too much other crap going on, and I'm way behind.
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Unless there's something wrong with the plug itself, ie, it's defective, then there is another problem. Are either the ports blocked, or is the puck missing? The Gunfixr plug still uses a puck.
To see if the plug is defective, draw a line down the side from one of the gas channels in the end where it meets the puck to the handle end. The shallowest one is #1, and the deepest one is #3. Screw in the plug until it locks into the detent. If you drew the line from say the deepest one (#3), then when the detent with the number 3 is at the spring loaded plunger, your line should be at the bottom, next to the barrel, which will place it over the port.
Something like whiteout will work just fine.
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I looked into a patent, and it's rather more expensive than it appears.
Actually, my plug is quite different than the factory plug, not just an improvement. They're both plugs, and that's pretty much where it ends.
The size of the ball end mill is the same used on both plugs. Setting 3 is identical on both plugs, they primarily differ on the depth of setting 1 and 2. I don't think Tac 47s plug has the cuts going as close to the center as I do, but really that doesn't have a whole lot of effect on performance.
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Interesting. I knew you had done one, and more or less shelved it. I also knew someone else had done one similar to mine, before mine, but with more positions, and shelved it. If either of you had marketed yours, I probably would've never marketed mine. I actually only made me one for myself, and everybody wanted one, so I marketed them.
I believe my other one is simpler, I need to finish it.
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It is not about where it bottoms out in the factory threads, our plugs are machined at the same thread start and setting every time so the position on the plug is the same on every plug, it is about positive and repeatable setting and determining what setting you are on to adjust accordingly.
They are not, period. Either your programmer doesn't know what he's doing, no one checked the parts to see before starting the run, or you're just lying.
Pick one.
I would say your encoder needs replacing, but then if it did, the machine wouldn't cut threads at all correctly, so it's not that.
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......We have designed our plug to start at the same and correct setting every time its installed and on every gun regardless of factory positioning.......
Since your threads start randomly, and the gas block threads start randomly, how can this even be possible???
Simply, it's not, and the gas block tests I did proved that out.
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So soon we forget. I'll show you where you made claims about my plug versus yours, and you can see for yourself.
I'll have to resurrect your original thread.
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I'm not sure what's with the personal jab. Trailer park ??? I don't live in a trailer park, and haven't in about 18-20yrs. There aren't any trailer parks anywhere near 64 where I live, so again, your info is off.
You claimed that your plugs are all threaded the same, and they are not.
The alignment is determined by the relationship of the spring loaded pin detents to the gas channels. You claimed that your plug aligns perfectly in every gun, unlike mine. It is rather clear by your statements that you aren't quite sure how it works, only that it does. You simply focused on getting it to work with one type of amnmo, and altered the part until it would.
That's entirely fine with me.
My plug was designed to work with a variety of ammo types. Compromise always means sacrifice. I sacrificed some of the cheap ammo types to get the most variety. I know many guns will not cycle Winchester bulk pack ammo with my plug, and always have. They will usually cycle Federal and Remington bulk pack just fine.
I know that everybody who just wants to shoot the absolute weakest loads only will be well served by this new plug, and that's fine. Mine will remain as it is, designed to work with some of the weak loads, while still working well with the heavy loads.
As for the hand thing, it's a battle implement, not a knitting machine.
Have Juggs go ask Gabe Suarez what he thinks about battle weapons having any corners on them.
The slots will be easier to get a tool into in the field.
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Well, if they've issued a recall, aren't they offering to pay you your money back, or give you a replacement?
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Well, Tac 47 has come out with a gas plug, and is claiming that it isn't a copy of mine, which they used to sell, but their own design, and actually an improvement over my design. They have made some claims that seem a bit audacious about this plug.
So, to see just what this is all about, I have acquired 2 of Tac 47s plugs, without telling them who I was. I paid for them with my own money.
I did not install them in a gun, as this is not specifically a performance test. Although peformance can be roughly judged by the past performance of my plug, and the differences or similarities that these plugs have with mine. Primarily, I have taken measurements, and tested their fit to the guns, to either assert or disprove their claims. If they have a better plug, so be it.
So, in the first pic are the plugs, 2 each of Tac 47s and 2 each of mine, made by MD Arms. Also shown are the tools used to take the physical measurements of the plugs, a micrometer reading in .0001" increments, a depth micrometer reading in .001" increments, and a set of digital calipers reading in .0005" increments. Also included are gas blocks from 5 different guns which are in process in my shop now, for purposes of testing fit.
In the next 3 pics are photos of all 4 plugs, side by side, to show the sililarites in appearances between the two.
While they appear very similar, there are some differences, some not so important, some rather important.
First, the measurements.
Both plugs have approximately the same overall length of 1.25", the same head diameter of .98", the same puck face counterbore diameter of .68", and the same puck face counterbore depth of .03".
The length of the section that screws into the gas block is .010" shorter on the Tac 47 plug than on the Gunfixr plug. This translates into a slightly increased space between the end of the plug, and the puck, making for a slightly larger gas chamber. This effectlively decreases the gas pressure on the puck by a small margin.
The diameter at the end where it meets the puck is .002" smaller on the Tac 47 plug. While this doesn't sound like much, a puck reduced by this same amount will consistently fail to operate the gun it was in before turning it down, except by the hottest loads, just due to the gas blow-by. What this means on the plug is that more gas is allowed to blow forward into the thread area, as it is not contained by the plug and forced toward the puck. This will also increase the fouling on the threads, making the plug tighter.
Now for the channels or grooves. This is where the biggest difference lies.
First, both are right at .25" wide. This is basically because the gas port hole in the gas block is approxmately .25" in diameter.
For setting #3, the most gas, there is only about .005" difference in depth from the face. This essentially means that on setting #3, both will perform the same.
For setting #2, the Tack 47 plug has a depth from the face of approx. .12", whereas the Gunfixr plug has a face depth of approx. .060". This is fully twice the depth, and half of the depth of the #3 setting. What this means is that probably most guns will operate the weakest shells on setting #2, negating the need for setting #3 except for the most undergassed of guns. This setting was designed to actually turn the gas down, so that the heavier 2 3/4" shells could be fired with less wear on the gun. Most guns should not reliably work on setting #2 with low brass shells.
For setting #1, the Tac 47 plug has a face depth of .062", whereas the Gunfixr plug has a face depth of .040". This is 1/3 deeper than the Gunfixr plug. It's actually the same depth as the #2 setting on the Gunfixr plug. The #1 setting was designed for the heaviest of 2 3/4" shells, and 3" shells. Also, the reason for the +/- setting for #1 was that Mike Davidson found that this was the setting that worked well with his drum when using heavier buckshot loads. The gun actually needed to be turned down a bit, so that it would run slower, and the drum could get the heavier shells fed.
This position doesn't even exist now on the Tac 47 plug. Essentially, the Tac 47 plug has a #2, a #2 1/2, and a #3 setting, in relation to the Gunfixr plug settings.
Now for the fit. All 4 plugs screwed right into all 5 gas blocks with no problems, all the way to bottoming out on the head of the plug.
One of the gas blocks had the detent pin installed, which was used to test the alignment of the channels of the plugs to the port in the block. All 4 plugs aligned over the port in the block almost exactly. The detent was then removed for the rest of the fit testing.
For the Gunfixr plugs, when both of the seperate plugs were screwed into the same gas block, they would bottom out at almost exactly the same point. When both of the seperate Tac 47 plugs were screwed into the same gas block, they bottomed out about a quarter turn different to each other.
That's right, the threads are not the same in relation to the channels from one of the Tac 47 plugs to the next. In fact, it can be seen with the naked eye. I took a couple pics, but I'm not sure if it is seen well. However, here they are. If you look closely at the angle of the threads, and the amount of full thread over the same groove in each part, you can see the difference. A pic of the Gunfixr plugs are shown for comparison, as they are all specifically made with the same thread relation to the channels.
When each of the Gunfixr plugs were screwed into each of the gas blocks, they would bottom out in a different place.
When each of the Tac 47 plugs were screwed into each of the gas blocks, they would bottom out in a different place.
This makes the claim by Tac 47 that the plugs will line up correctly in all guns patently false. He cannot make them line up the same in all guns, just like I nor anybody else can. This is because we don't make the gas blocks. While it is possible the thread the holes in the gas blocks all identical, Izhmash doesn't see this as necessary, so it is not done.
As for the Tac 47 plug being more efficient, well that's rather subjective. You cannot turn the gun down, only up. Other than that, it channels gas no more or less efficiently than the Gunfixr plugs, since the channels are shaped the same, and positioned the same. It will leak more gas and fouling to the threads, as it has a smaller end diameter.
As for hand friendly, well, that's a fully personal thing. The knurling is a diamond knurl, which is more uni-directional than lined knurling, however the line knurling is in the correct direction for turning force. The diamonds are not "pointed", so it really offered no more or less actual grip to me. The holes do mean no corners to dig into flesh, but they do add limitations. If you need a tool to break the plug free, you will have to have something that fits into the holes, and is strong enough not to just bend. You will have to have this specific tool with you when you need it. With the cross slots, almost anything can be used. You can use the same tool that would move the one with holes, or almost any flat bladed screwdriver, many smaller Phillips head screwdrivers, the back of a knife blade such a pocketknife, even a quarter. Perhaps (I haven't tried it) the rim of a shotshell would break it loose. The removed dust cover will turn it.
As for gas adjustment, the Gunfixr plug was designed so that as many types of shells as possible could be fired in the same gun, merely by adjustment. You can turn it up to work lighter shells, or turn it down, so that heavier shells could be used without excess wear on the gun, namely the pounding of the back trunnion. If you played around with opening up the gas ports too large, you could counter by turning down the plug settings.
With the Tac 47 plug, you no longer have the #1 setting at all. Keep in mind that when the original testing was done on the Gunfixr plug, and they were being made with a "0" setting, off, that some guns would still partially cycle with 3" loads. How hard will that same gun cycle with a minimum setting of 2? If you only plan on running low brass shells with occaisional small numbers of high brass, and few slugs in your gun, then this plug will be fine. If you plan on more high brass, slugs, and 3" shells, your gun will be well overgassed. Only time will tell how the gun will hold up that way.
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Got Wishbone's Saiga painted. He's a member here, and a personal friend of mine. We had done the conversion awhile back.
The rifle was done in a frehand pattern, using 6 colors. Also done were 2 30rd mags and a 15rd mag, as well as 2 scope mounts with scopes, one a conventional scope, and the other a red dot scope, and a tac light. Not only do the mags, light, and scopes match the rifle, but they match the particular area of the rifle that they cover.
Anyway, on to the pics:
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First, let me say that I'm not here to shit in someone elses thread. I have nothing against Tac 47, and copies of my plug were inevitable.
Nobody copies junk, so it's a good thing in a way.
So, on my plug, the original design is for the threads to start in the same position in relation to the gas passages and detent notches. They are supposed to be made that way.
The problem is that the threads in the guns' gas block do not always start the same. You can put the same plug in different guns, and it will stop in different places on each one.
To answer the o-ring question, the heat would kill the o-ring rather quickly. Also, it would make the plug tighter and harder to rotate. The round cross section of the o-ring would probably fail to keep the blast pressure from passing. And lastly, there is a relief groove in the gas block at the far end of the threads that would prevent the o-ring from fitting correctly.
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Just like Carolina SS said, screw it in all the way. Then, back it out to -1. After that is +1, 2, and 3. Each higher number gives more gas flow.
The locking pin acts as a detent pin only, and will stick out more as you back out the plug. The "clicks" are the pin hitting the detent notches.
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I saw it, way back when it was on cable.
I thought it was pretty good. It was fairly brutal, but that's how war is.
I wouldn't mind owning a copy, but I wouldn't pay huge bucks for it.
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Yeah, it's called "Glock finger".
Anyway, it's a pretty simple fix. You can do it in the gun, or remove the trigger/trigger bar first, it's up to you.
Hold the little safety in all the way, bottomed out, and of course you'll see that it still protrudes some. Take either your dremel with a sanding drum on it, or some emery cloth on a dowel or half round file, and sand it down until it's flush with the trigger. If you want, you can sand the grooves in the trigger face down some, or all the way, making a smooth trigger. Your option.
MAKE SURE THAT THE TRIGGER SAFETY IS FULLY DEPRESSED WHEN YOU DO THIS. This is because of you leave it up some, you'll grind it too far, and it won't disengage when you pull the trigger, and you'll have to replace the entire trigger/trigger bar, since they're not sold seperately.
Remove any flashing/ burrs from sanding, and you're done. It will work as normal, only without that little high point that irritates your finger.
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The biggest problem you have is that you thought I was serious. This is the big, bad internet.
This is a GUN FORUM on the internet. Grow a pair?
The internet may be big, but it ain't that bad.
I know it's a gun forum.
I have a pair already.
I'm just tired of the bullshit.
To me, this wasn't a joking kind of thread. Maybe for you the lines are a bit blurred.
Since it's a GUN FORUM, maybe the "filler" could be saved for the "filler" section.
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If that's all it took to make you cry, I feel sorry for you.
I am not an engineer, just guy who works on guns for a living. I know how the system works, and so tried to explain it in terms anybody could understand.
Next time, I'll just stay quiet, and you can explain it.
Between your crying, and others picking my explanation apart.
Every time I log on here, I get more reasons to take a longer time before I come back.
Further proof that no good deed goes unpunished.
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I used to shoot CAS, and load all BP cartridges. I washed all my brass in water to neutralize the corrosiveness of the fouling. Have left the brass in water for a month or so with no ill effects. Did it monthly for years.
Unless it's pretty hot, the quickest way to dry it out is in the oven. The brass will get mostly dry, but the primer pocket wil hold water for some time unless it's been deprimed. In the oven, it'll all dry.Lay it out in one layer on a large cookie sheet. Put in the oven at about 220 degrees, for about 30 minutes. I just then turn the oven off and let them slow cool in the oven, but you can also take them out. Don't go any higher than about 250 degrees, or you'll start to anneal the brass, and the primer pockets will expand and not hold primers anymore. At 220 degrees, the water will all steam out.
Hell, I just got finished washing my AK in the bathtub, after shooting Yugo corrosive ammo in it.
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It's a short-stroke piston system. The regular AK uses a long stroke piston system.
The M1 Carbine, the M14/M1A, and the Ruger Mini 14 also use this system.
The piston (puck) moves only a short distance, imparting a thrusting force to the bolt carrier. It then stops moving, having bottomed out in it's carrier, and the bolt carrier continues on from the impetus alone.
Although not exactly the same, it is similar in concept to the swinging balls you see on peoples' desks. The one where there is a frame with several steel balls hanging in it on strings, and when one is drawn back and allowed to hit the rest, the one on the opposite end moves away due to the transferred impetus. If you took the center balls out, and had only two, then it would be pretty much the same.
ETA: Actually, there is less than 1/32" of free space between the fully forward bolt carrier and the gas plug. This varies from about 1/64" to just about 1/32", depending on where the gas plug is adjusted.
Therefore, the puck does not act as a "hammer". There isn't enough free travel, and the puck doesn't have sufficient mass. It is all push, given by the pressure behind the puck, a very sudden and hard push.
Like playing shuffleboard. You take the "pusher" (don't know what it's real name is) and give the disk a shove. It keeps on going down the board, even though you have stopped pushing it.
Impetus.
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Actually, I had considered going back to the original, primarily to eliminate any possibilities of friction. Just haven't decided.
It is interesting to watch this thread (d)evolve.
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I'll have to try the heat sink in the gas block. Don't know why I didn't think of that, use a heat sink when welding Mauser bolt handles, same principle.
Definately TIG, as soldering means heating up the whole thing to temp.
I very often drill the holes in the cover, and plug from the bottom. I've done the Tromix rail that way too. Shame Tony quit making those, but I understand why. I usually reshape the bottom of the front, and take a small amount out, to make it match the contour of the gas block better. I have drilled the sides of the front base, and plug welded that on, but the ehat required was actually higher, and rework was necessary.
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Annealing, or softening, doesn't involve quenching, but letting the part slow cool naturally after heating.
At first, I cut them off with a Dremel, using a cutoff wheel, and going from inside the plate to not damage the trigger guard.
Now, I drill them out with a 3/16" carbide end mill, then just twist it off. I use the hole to plug weld it back on later.
I drill all the rivets the same way. I just cut down the heads flush, and tap the trigger guard and plate off. In less than 5 minutes, it's all done.
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I hate to see buisness members fight with each other. I kind of see buisness members as being the role models for saiga owners. I wish there was something I could do to smooth things over.
I didn't really think we were fighting. There were issues on both sides, they were not settled, we are seperating.
I am not sure what you think can be done to smooth things over.
AUTO PLUG TAC 47 T.A.R.G.E.T
in Saiga-12
Posted
Well, except for directly copying my design, and then selling it cheaper.
We'll wait to see what happens with this plug, as I have been playing with one also, and know the problems they can have.
If he's addressed those, great.