Arrghh.... Where does one find "Shot Diverters"??

[jlseagull 0]

UPDATED! - Found one (kinda)! See post#30.

 

I've got a gargantuan flash hider that came on my Saiga, but I would really love a shot diverter there instead. The idea of a 4-to-1 width to hight ratio is very appealing, especially if I can keep shooting slugs too!

 

Anyone know where to find these mythical beasts? I've looked online and haven't even found many places that look like they've ever sold them.

 

I looked through the forums, and found that a new poster named "SaigaMax" (who seems to have disappeared) appears to have found the exact item I'm dreaming of, but has no information on the maker or the place where it was purchased (Link to SaigaMax thread).

 

Can anyone help?

 

Thanks!

Edited June 12, 2006 by jlseagull

[McUZI 1]

Very, very difficult items.

Pre 'internet age', so you won't find jack shit about them online.

 

Made for a very short time by an outfit in Texas that called themselves 'A&W' in the early 1970's and then only a handful were manufactured.

 

The thing with them is that they required a permanent install- they didn't just 'thread' on like a choke where they could be taken on and off, so they didn't sell to many and those that they did are all affixed by now.

 

Some guy on suturmgewehr a couple months back had a NIB A&W diverter for $150. I about shit- emailed him, but missed it by one interested party.

Thank god that turkey fell through, and I wound up getting it

 

 

A number of years back, someone bought the tooling and set up a booth at the shot show promising to remake them, but nothing ever came of that.

Anyway, they handed out 'sample' castings of the diverters which didn't have any mounting threads, bead sight, coupling or finish.

Usually, these are what you see when you actually run into one for sale. FWIW, that's the kind that Saigamax has mounted on his gun. The originals were blued with a bead sight and a threaded coupling. The sample castings were just that- sample castings but due to the scarcity of the diverters, most of them got pressed into use in subsequent years as people wanted diverters but the only ones to be found were the 'sample castings'.

 

I have both, i'll get a picture posted later this afternoon showing the difference between a sample and a finished, 'for use' diverter.

Edited August 25, 2005 by McUZI

[McUZI 1]

Oh, and FYI, it isn't an "Atchisson Shot Diverter".

It was designed by guys named Cliff Ashbrook (A) and Wilson Wing (W).

[jlseagull 0]

Oh, and FYI, it isn't an "Atchisson Shot Diverter".

It was designed by guys named Cliff Ashbrook (A) and Wilson Wing (W).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Thanks, McUZI for the info. Hard to believe that no one has made such a useful product in 30 years. I guess I'll start my wild goose chase.

 

Sucks that no one else has bothered to produce these. It looks like the one you've posted pics of is a 2-to-1 ratio, correct?

Edited August 25, 2005 by jlseagull

[McUZI 1]

Could be a 4/1, could be a 2/1.

I dunno.

The model number on the box says 'Model Two', but I don't know what that means. I guess the 4/1 could have been Model 1 and the 2/1 been Model 2- or vise versa- the lower of the two spreads having the lower model number, while the broader of the two spreads had the higher model number. Information on the company and it's products is pretty much nonexistant, so deciphering the technical nomenclature is pretty much impossible from casual research.

 

As far as someone tooling to make them, I know where the original tooling for them happens to be. A dealer in Illinois owns it, and is willing to sell it for a few grand.

Figure another few grand in setup costs for the casting and another few grand for materials, I would imagine that we could start cranking them out for $10-$12,000.

Of course, this is before any threaded couplings or blasting and park time...

Add costs like advertisting, shipping cartons and labels, not to mention a reasonable buffer so the time one invests is compensated- I would guess that we could tool and start cranking them out pretty quickly (since the casting dies are already made) in under a month for $20K.

 

It's one of those things that if you're the guy who really wants one, you just can;t understand why they aren't made.

If you're the guy who is going to make them, you learn hard and fast how few guys really want them.

Edited August 25, 2005 by McUZI

[jlseagull 0]

Actually, I'm pretty sure I'm right, although I was just basing it on the aperature from the two pictures...

 

My brief research on the thing said there were 2 models produced, a 2:1 and a 4:1. A google-search pulled up one that was listed on Ebay in January, and it the title it said "model 4", so I'm fairly sure "model 2" = 2:1, and "model 4" = 4:1.

 

Still, for a product that could be slapped on any "home defense" 12 for years to come and raise the effective accuracy of even the most timid housewife, you'd think one of the accessories shops out there would feature it in their catalog long term.

Edited August 25, 2005 by jlseagull

[McUZI 1]

Yeah, I would imagine that if there is a 'model 4', that this is probably a 2/1.

 

Got a link to that ebay auction? I can't find it.

 

Nothing on google that hits on anything with a general search que - shot diverter - and "model 4" or "model four" as being relevant.

Everything on "A&W Shot Diverter" or "A&W"+"Shot Diverter" or -shot diverter- + "A&W" doesn't bring up any such ebay auction.

Edited August 25, 2005 by McUZI

[TonyRumore 1,332]

McUZI,

 

Do you think there is any way to reproduce the device, or a similar device using conventional machining, or is the thing a casting venture only?

 

Could it be machined in two half shells (split lengthwise), and then welded together?

 

Tony Rumore

Tromix Corp

Edited August 25, 2005 by TonyRumore

[jlseagull 0]

It's actually from another search page I found through google...

 

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:luza_cw...r+shotgun&hl=en

[ironhead7544 35]

The original intended use for that gadget was riot control. It was meant to be fired at the ground in front of a rioting crowd to divert the pellets into wide spread hits in the legs. I cant see the police using this tactic now. The ACLU would go crazy on them. The cops are very worried about hitting innocent bystanders and making the pattern bigger would mean hits off the intended target. It seems most shotgunners want a tighter 00 buck pattern like the Vang Comp barrels put out. I think a 15 inch pattern at 25 yards is about right. Most open choke shotguns will do this if you test a bunch of loads. My Mossberg 500 Ghost Ring 12 ga will put 5 shots of the Federal Tactical Load into about 12 inches at 25 yards. What would be your intended use for this gadget?

[TonyRumore 1,332]

If everything I sold had a practical purpose, I would be out of business.

 

Guys buy shit because it's cool and interesting. Myself included. What's wrong with that?

[McUZI 1]

I dunno if this model could be machined and welded given the intensity of the stresses that are involved.

Might be, dunno.

 

The shot diverters Madurski made a couple years back were all machined, but those were closer in design to a Vietnam era duckbill than this unit.

 

Either way, you'll have these A&W's in your hands soon enough.

If you do make them, I want in on the beta run.

[jlseagull 0]

I don't have a predetermined "use" for this diverter other than the fact that I know that when engaged with a threat, eliminating the number of axises of aim would be a substantial help to anyone shooting for defense in a high-stress situation, but especially for someone (like a GF or wife) who may not shoot as regularly as most of us people on the forum do.

 

Personally, I think that most people have an instinct to hold the gun level (or close to it), so I think these devices that widen the shot pattern horizontally at a small cost of vertical spread are brilliant.

Edited August 25, 2005 by jlseagull

[TonyRumore 1,332]

You could always mount the thing so it would spread the shot vertically. Then you could blast it right by someone that was relatively close to your target.

[McUZI 1]

would be a substantial help to anyone shooting for defense in a high-stress situation

 

That's why i'm kinda gay on the 2/1 unit, although I would buy any 4/1 that came up too...

 

The 4/1 tosses a very broad pattern, like so much that you are only hitting an intended target with a couple pellets.

The 2/1 spreads it open so you are ensured to hit whatever it is that you're aiming at, but still delivers a 'payload' of shot.

 

I would imagine that the 4/1 would be more popular since what's 'most' is always what's most popular, but the 2/1 seems way more practical as a working unit.

Edited August 25, 2005 by McUZI

[jlseagull 0]

I would imagine that the 4/1 would be more popular since what's 'most' is always what's most popular, but the 2/1 seems way more practical as a working unit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Obviously, it depends on the range you're intending to use it in. Tony's got a wicked idea though if you want to use a 2:1 and make sure you hit all a bad guy's vitals as well as his kneecaps in your first shot.

[usamark 1]

Tony,

 

I was looking at one of these and I don't see why you couldn't machine one that would be close to the original. You wouldn't get the exact nice taper they have in the casting, but is it that important? Close would do. The other thing you could do is just make it in the round, heat it up and squash it.

 

When this particular diverter was tried, there wasn't a very noticeable change in the pattern as I recall. I'm imagining this is a 2:1 (Spas-12)

 

FWIW

[McUZI 1]

It isn't just a 'taper', though.

The internal structure has two raised 'teeth' that make an almost figure-8 type shape. These 'teeth' get progressively taller as you go towards the exit hole of the device

I'm sure it could be machined within the realm of infinite possibility, but I don't know if it would be practical for resale given the time involved.

An easier solution would be to machine a duckbill style diverter.

 

Here's an "Under 2 Minutes Using MS Paint" rough idea of a duckbill... In real life the taper isn't nearly that sharp, but what teh fuck, I was using MS paint.

 

 

The back end represents threads which are threaded and then brazed onto the barrel.

Edited August 26, 2005 by McUZI

[McUZI 1]

Obviously, it depends on the range you're intending to use it in.  Tony's got a wicked idea though if you want to use a 2:1 and make sure you hit all a bad guy's vitals as well as his kneecaps in your first shot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It would be fun to try one, but I don't think that mounting one so that it threw a vertical shot column would do much in a practical sense.

The whole purpose of the device is to increase hit probability not potential terminal 'lethality'. Holding that a shotgun that's more likely to hit is far more lethal a shotgun that's less likely to hit, I would choose horizontal shot spread 10 times out of 10.

Edited August 26, 2005 by McUZI

[usamark 1]

The taper on the teeth could be done - it's just another operation. Seems like a good project for a horizontal mill.

 

The one I tried, tho, didn't seem to do much as far a spreading out the pattern.

 

It'd be interesting to see the duck bill pattern compared to this one with the teeth.

[jlseagull 0]

The whole purpose of the device is to increase hit probability not potential terminal 'lethality'. Holding that a shotgun that's more likely to hit is far more lethal a shotgun that's less likely to hit, I would choose horizontal shot spread 10 times out of 10.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Me too. Like I said before, I think there's a natural tendency to hold the gun close to level, and certainly a bad guy is a wider vertical target than a horizontal one.

[ironhead7544 35]

Tony: I'm not saying it isnt a neat idea, just wondering what what you had in mind for it. It would be interesting to see the results on target with different loads. It would also increase the intimadation factor. I remenmber seeing a write-up on this many years ago. Think it was Gun World magazine. It was also featured in an old Law Enforcement Digest. If you can find either of those articles, you will have some good info.

[TonyRumore 1,332]

My intent for them, is to sell them. That's it from my end. What people do with them is their business. I make all kinds of crazy shit that makes no sense to me, but if the customer has the money.......I got the time.

 

Tony Rumore

[jlseagull 0]

Well,

 

If you decide to make them, I'll be in for two.

[jlseagull 0]

Tony -

 

Any update on if this looks like something that will be worthwhile for you to do?

[jlseagull 0]

Tromix -

 

Were you able to look at one of these to see if manufacture is feasible? I've struck out so far trying to find them.

[TonyRumore 1,332]

I have two of the them in-hand now. Making an exact duplicate is not going to happen on my conventional milling machine and lathe. It appears that they have been cast.

[McUZI 1]

Well,

 

If you decide to make them, I'll be in for two.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Circumstances depending, I may be auctioning off one of mine.

I'll post a link when/if I do.

 

[jlseagull 0]

Nice Graphic!

 

Please let me know when you do!

 

Tony - Does it look like something a 4-axis milling machine could handle? I imagine the angle of the interior is the tricky part.

 

prizeferret@hotmail.com

Edited September 30, 2005 by jlseagull

[TonyRumore 1,332]

I don't think any type of milling machine could make that part in one piece. If you look at McUZI's first post, upper left pic, that front end shape tapers back larger and larger, until the shape washes out into a complete round just before the square ports. Maybe it could be broached from the back with a tapered broach of some sort......I don't know.

 

I think some sort of duck-bill spreader would be much easier to make on conventional equipment.