Voodoo407 2 Posted May 3, 2012 Report Share Posted May 3, 2012 (edited) Does anyone know if this break (molot GK-01) can be welded on a shortened barrel to make the OAL 18.5in? I've heard it was aluminum but has a Steel collar with treads. Edited May 3, 2012 by Voodoo407 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Odd Man Out 1,283 Posted May 3, 2012 Report Share Posted May 3, 2012 It would need to be TIG'ed, delicately Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted May 4, 2012 Report Share Posted May 4, 2012 In an older thread, they pointed out that you would have to pin the aluminum portion to the threaded steel insert then weld aluminum over the pins to make ATF happy. This would be in addition to permanently attaching the steel insert to the barrel. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Voodoo407 2 Posted June 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 Sorry I've been away for a while. Do any of the forum members perform this mod Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Squishy 1,149 Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 I'm going to be having this done soon. Having to have both steel an aluminum welding done in the same operation might limit the possible choices of who can do the work. Legally knocking 5" off the barrel length will have a price. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Voodoo407 2 Posted June 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 (edited) I am starting to see that. However, the break is just to bulky (long) to just add to the 19 in barrel. If I am unable to find Someone to do it soon I will have to reevaluate my build and go with something else. Sucks because the break really works! If you find someone creditable to do it and it turns out well please let me know Edited June 1, 2012 by Voodoo407 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Squishy 1,149 Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 I'm going to be talking to a local shop soon about getting some Ceracoating done and supposedly they've got a cracker jack gunsmith but...I'm finding it all depends, some gunsmiths just simply don't like doing certain things even if it's something they can do. For cutting the barrel and adding a permanent brake I'd be willing to ship the gun just to get a good job done. So if anyone knows of a person who can do this and is interested in doing it, chime in. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Squishy 1,149 Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 I am starting to see that. However, the break is just to bulky (long) to just add to the 19 in barrel. If I am unable to find Someone to do it soon I will have to reevaluate my build and go with something else. I've got one S-12 with a 19" barrel that I've installed the Molot on and yes, it's out there for sure. I consider this for use long/er range accuracy w/slugs etc. But cutting down a 19" and adding the Molot for a legal total length and adding a folding stock for a more compact package is why I recently purchased IZ-109 #2. Sucks because the break really works! Yes it does, I'm not sure I'd be jumping through all these hoops for "cool factor:" alone. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Squishy 1,149 Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 In an older thread, they pointed out that you would have to pin the aluminum portion to the threaded steel insert then weld aluminum over the pins to make ATF happy. This would be in addition to permanently attaching the steel insert to the barrel. I talked to a local gumsmith at the show today about this and I'd like to find the specifics, or as specific as I can get with regard to what's required with this. I can't find that older thread you mention GF. This is going to be some trouble and expense so I'd like to get it right, be a drag to get it done and find out it doesn't "conform". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 I don't recall the name of the thread. A few months ago, there were several threads about the molot comp that amounted to running a business. The content may be gone now. I don't know. To think of it in simpler terms, every connection that could be removed must be attached by their approved permanent methods. You have 2 connections. 1 is the liner to the barrel. 2 is the aluminum brake to the liner. The most plausible method with those dissimilar metals is to thread the whole thing on tightly, drill for blind pins, drive stainless pins in and tig weld aluminum over the pin ends. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Squishy 1,149 Posted June 3, 2012 Report Share Posted June 3, 2012 (edited) Ok, I found this; "The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over. Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and measured." It's just as you've said GF. For a solid, single piece attachment any one of the three methods mentioned above would work. But as the Molot is a two piece design, the only way to attach the aluminum part to the steel part is by "blind pinning with the pin head welded over", and then either "full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding" or "high-temperature (1100°F) silver soldering"...to attach the steel collar to the barrel. I didn't doubt what had been said but as I have a problem with tight spaces I wanted to see the words from the NFA. ADD: If the pin head/s are welded over and then either painted or Cerakoted how would you prove it had been done? A receipt from the gunsmith who'd done the work? Edited June 3, 2012 by Squishy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 (edited) You could take pics as you go. If it ever became an issue, they would have the burden of proving that you didn't do it, and presumably when they torch it short of 1600 and then stick a wrench on there and it fails to turn, they would have successfully proved your case. You could then send them a bill for a new Duracoat job. I bet just describing the process to them would make them willing to take your word for it rather than go to the hassle and expense of questioning. Really people who are cited for possession of an illegal weapon have grossly non-conforming weapons, and the owner obviously made no attempt to comply. Usually it is a cheap old shotgun cut down crookedly with a hacksaw that some gang banger has shoved down his pants. Checking things in a lab costs money, and cops only like to do that if they think they know the answer. That's why they seldom take fingerprints from burglaries and vandalism. Even when they know there are good prints, unless they think they have a matching suspect, they generally won't spend the $85 per print to send them to the crime lab here in WA. As I understand it, they would still have to prove that your method is not permanent each time anyway. The methods they list are just ones they have agreed not to argue about in advance. If you took pictures of your work, how would they even get probable cause to question your methods? I doubt a prosecutor would find that to be worth department resources either. Edited June 4, 2012 by GunFun Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Squishy 1,149 Posted June 4, 2012 Report Share Posted June 4, 2012 I'm going to have to have someone do this work so I'll just request that the work be detailed on the receipt. If it came right down to it and it was a matter of proving pins had been added or being charged with a felony I'd have no problem with a destructive test which would trash the compensator. I doubt it would ever come up unless the gun was used in a situation where death/s were involved and a misguided/overzealous prosecutor wanted to find fault wherever they could. However unlikely, I'd still want to protect myself against the possibility of this happening. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Squishy 1,149 Posted June 16, 2012 Report Share Posted June 16, 2012 Well, looks like I might not be able to do a barrel cut and permanent attachment with the Molot. I'm not taking this as the final answer but a smith here in SC who does silencers, SBSs etc. told me that the temps required to attach the steel collar to the barrel would have a detrimental effect on the aluminum part of the brake. He asked for pics which I sent and I haven't heard anything back yet. The only other possibility would be to run the pins all they way though to the barrel but there's not a lot of meat there so that probably wouldn't work. Oh well, not a big deal, #2's barrel will be 5" longer. I could get a stamp I guess but damn if I feel like waiting 6-9 months for it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Odd Man Out 1,283 Posted June 16, 2012 Report Share Posted June 16, 2012 Color me cornfuzed... When is a weld not considered a permanent attachment? Does that mean that every barrel that has been cut down to below 18 inches, and then has had a flash hider/muzzle brake/etc. permanently attached by welding is in reality an illegal SBS??? If the feds think that welding is not a method for permanent attachment, then we are all screwed -- they could also allege that a person could cut the brake/hider/etc. off the end of the barrel and pre emptively take the future offending (maybe) weapon... REDICULOUS! ADD: If the pin head/s are welded over and then either painted or Cerakoted how would you prove it had been done? A receipt from the gunsmith who'd done the work? Get it X-rayed. Done deal. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Squishy 1,149 Posted June 16, 2012 Report Share Posted June 16, 2012 Color me cornfuzed... When is a weld not considered a permanent attachment? Does that mean that every barrel that has been cut down to below 18 inches, and then has had a flash hider/muzzle brake/etc. permanently attached by welding is in reality an illegal SBS??? If the feds think that welding is not a method for permanent attachment, then we are all screwed -- they could also allege that a person could cut the brake/hider/etc. off the end of the barrel and pre emptively take the future offending (maybe) weapon... REDICULOUS! ADD: If the pin head/s are welded over and then either painted or Cerakoted how would you prove it had been done? A receipt from the gunsmith who'd done the work? Get it X-rayed. Done deal. I'm confused about what it is you're confused about. Welding is, from what I know an acceptable method for permanent attachment along with blinded pins and silver soldering. Was it something in my last post that gave the impression I was saying welding isn't considered permanent? Oh, and x-ray is a good idea, but they pay if they wish to prove it's not pinned. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Odd Man Out 1,283 Posted June 16, 2012 Report Share Posted June 16, 2012 (edited) I just don't know why the additional pin would be needed -- I don't see a way to seperate the steel insert from the AL brake without destroying the brake so the pin seems superflous. Welding alone should suffice. My bold rediculous in the last post was in ref to the FEDs needing both welding and pinning to "prove" things are on permanently. Was not directed at you. Edited June 16, 2012 by Odd Man Out Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Squishy 1,149 Posted June 16, 2012 Report Share Posted June 16, 2012 No problem but even without pinning the aluminum to steel in the opinion of at least one gunsmith here who does work beyond the average the temps required to either silver solder or tig the steel part of the brake to the barrel would possibly make the whole thing FUBAR. I checked the temps for both the soldering and tigging and both exceed the melting point of aluminum by a fairly wide margin. But I'm not a welder so I guess I'll have to trust "expert" opinion about it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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