Forge 11 Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 Has anyone milled the minor amount off of the bottom of their front trunnion in order to get milsurp 223 AK magazines to seat into their saiga? I saw someone on AR15.com had done that to his 223 Saiga and I was wondering if anyone did that here. I am looking into undertaking this modification and was wondering if anyone had any experience doing this. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
liberty -r- death 1,445 Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 Check you tube. There are several members here that have done it I'm sure, but most find it easier to modify the mags by removing material on them instead. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 (edited) I'm building a .223 AK from a Bulgarian AK-74 parts kit very soon, so I've been checking and comparing the Saiga and AK-74 parts in order to make sure that they can share all mags I have on hand without issue. What I've found is that there are two trunnion dimension types that the majority of .223 AK mags are designed for: AKM and AK-74. The AK-74 trunnion has smaller height locking lugs. The AKM trunnion locking lugs have a greater overall height, and protrude lower into the magazine well. The Saiga .223, despite being based on the AK-100 series, uses a trunnion that shares locking lug sizes with the AKM/AK-103 series. The Saiga 7.62x39 and Saiga .223 share the same trunnion and locking lug dimensions, while the Saiga 5.45x39 trunnion has AK-74 spec lugs. This has a couple of benefits, including 1) larger locking lug surface area, which helps to withstand the greater pressures of the 5.56 NATO cartridge, and 2) built-in protection against the user accidentally inserting and using 5.45x39 magazines in the rifle. The Beryl magazines, for example, are fitted for an AK-74 type trunnion, so they require a small amount of material removed in order to clear the larger locking lugs of the Saiga. When fitting a Beryl mag, you basically just make the forward feed lip area match the profile of the Saiga factory mag. Most other types of .223 AK magazines out there are designed for an AKM spec trunnion, and therefore should have few trunnion clearance issues when inserting them into the Saiga .223. This includes Galil (surplus and Tapco), Weiger, Circle 10, Promag, and all of the Saiga-specific magazine types. Using these mags in an AK-74 spec trunnion doesn't mean anything, other than there is a bit of a loose fit between the forward feed lips of the mag and the bottom of the locking lugs. Usually this isn't a problem because the bullet guide and the sides of the trunnion are enough to keep the front of the mag snug. So in other words, a magazine that's designed to fit the AKM trunnion has the greatest amount of compatibility across all trunnion types. If you wanted to mod the rifle, you would simply mill a small amount of material (1-2mm) off of the bottom of the locking lugs. This is a bit difficult to do with the trunnion installed in the rifle, but not impossible. It's pretty similar to the mods that are needed to use the AR mag adapters. Do whatever you feel is easiest for you to use the type of mags you want. My personal preference is to leave the rifle alone and mod whichever magazines don't fit. The only type of surplus/commercial .223 mag I have that didn't snap right into the Saiga without mods, is the Beryl magazine. Once they're modded to the rifle, they fit just as well into an AK-74 trunnion without any additional wobble. If you would like to mod the locking lugs, let me know. I have a couple AK-74 trunnions free and I can take the measurements of the locking lugs for you so that you know how much material would need to be removed. Edited November 2, 2012 by mancat 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 Has anyone milled the minor amount off of the bottom of their front trunnion in order to get milsurp 223 AK magazines to seat into their saiga? I saw someone on AR15.com had done that to his 223 Saiga and I was wondering if anyone did that here. I am looking into undertaking this modification and was wondering if anyone had any experience doing this. You never know how a given 223 AK mag type will fit in your Saiga 223 until you try to insert it. It may be that no modification is needed at all. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 (edited) Most other types of .223 AK magazines out there are designed for an AKM spec trunnion. This includes Galil (surplus and Tapco), Weiger, Circle 10, Promag, and all of the Saiga-specific magazine types. In my experience, there are huge differences between the fit of some of these types of mags. I'm not sure how they can be reasonably lumped together. For instance, Galil steel mags inserted into my Saiga with no modification at all, but had excessive side to side wobble and a fair amount of front to back wobble as well. On the other hand, Circle 10 mags required the removal of the interdiction tab on the rifle, slight filing on the crossbar (this is rare but may affect some Saigas), and filing on the magazine locking tab. They still had some small side to side movement in the front due to slightly inadequate feedlip engagement, but were otherwise immoveable. Weigers also needed the interdiction tab gone, plus filing on the mag locking tab and feedlips. They lock up perfect. Edited November 2, 2012 by Jim Digriz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 (edited) Jim, there are definitely receiver differences across the Saiga product line. Most of the interdiction tab removal and crossbar issues seem to be on the older rifles without dimples, which may have had different magwell dimensions and crossbar location. But the trunnion should be virtually identical, except for flat/round bullet guide area differences. Otherwise, Izhmash would have had to ship two different types of magazine with the rifles over the years. It would be nice to get someone with an older non-dimpled receiver to take full dimensions of the magwell and trunnion areas, but generally I see that surplus magazine interest here is somewhat low? A lot of people use the Saiga-specific aftermarket magazines from what I see. I never had to touch the receiver, crossbar, or mag latch for any of these mags to work in my rifle. P.S. I discovered a little trick recently for the steel Galil mags that makes it very easy to snug them up in the rifle, and eliminates a lot of feeding issues. I'll be making a post on it later today I think. Edited November 2, 2012 by mancat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 Jim, there are definitely receiver differences across the Saiga product line. Most of the interdiction tab removal and crossbar issues seem to be on the older rifles without dimples, which may have had different magwell dimensions and crossbar location. I was always looking for a common thread with the problematic rifles, but the date theory didn't hold up. However, it is true that my rifle is an older rifle without dimples. I know that others had newer rifles with the same problem, but I don't recall whether they had dimples or not. P.S. I discovered a little trick recently for the steel Galil mags that makes it very easy to snug them up in the rifle, and eliminates a lot of feeding issues. I'll be making a post on it later today I think. I'd be interested in hearing it. They are great mags, if they can be found lightly used or unissued. A lot of them are pretty worn out and beat up though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
131Johan131 5 Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 On the second saiga .223 i bought i decided to convert it myself starting with a simple conversion. Then i started reading all this SHTF stuff and liked the idea, took my rifle and for shits and giggles I went ahead and bought some bulgarian circle 10 mags after asking around about them on the forum and ended up shaving a little bit off of the mag catch and had a buddy that is a machinist take 2 mm. off of the bottom of the locking lugs. I had planned only on using the bulgy mags in this rifle and after doing all above mods the mags sit in the rifle with no problem. it was necessary to mod the mags or the locking lugs though and i felt confident enough to mod the rifle and ended up happy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Forge 11 Posted November 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 My 223 Saiga is a 06 manufacture no dimples, and the Circle 10 that I bought will not engage under the trunnion locking lugs. I could easily modify the mag, but would prefer to be able to uniformly pick up any 223 ak mag and be able to lock and load. I can measure the thickness of my lugs, but I am going to be out of pocket until Saturday night. Mancat, I would like to find out the dimensions of you AK 74 trunnion locking lugs for a reference point to start at. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 The lug height is about 7.25mm on the AK-74 trunnion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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