Steve in Allentown, PA
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Posts posted by Steve in Allentown, PA
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1) The 1911 main spring can be used to replace the "front" coil spring on the S12.
2) No need to cut the spring.
3) Typical springs used tend to be in the 10 or 11lb range?
Your fu is strong grasshopper.
I replace the front factory spring with a Wolff 10lb 1911 spring when I shoot the wimpy Walmart birdshot bulk packs.
"Typical" is difficult to define. Since I'm a 1911 guy I have a wide selection of Wolff springs on hand to better match whatever load I'm using at the time. So, I just swap out front Saiga springs until I find the spring that works the best. It all depends on the ammo I'm using. By the way, I always replace that 1911 spring with the factory one when I return from the range. I'd hate to make the mistake of blasting a 3" slug through the shotgun without benefit of having the factory front spring installed.
What I'd like to know for sure to help tweek under-gassed/over-gassed guns1) How many pounds (lb) is the factory Saiga 12 front spring rated at?
2) What is the typical range to use for a under-gassed gun?
3) What is the typical range to use for a over-gassed gun?
Can't really help you with these questions.
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I have one of Mike's first run drums.
With just a touch of a file here and there it fit the gun perfectly and functioned flawlessly at the range.
The only problem was it would not easily lock in place when it was loaded with more than just a couple of rounds. The reason for this was that the feed lips were forced apart by the pressure of the rounds pushing up. In fact, they spread apart enough that they would contact the inside of the receiver as the drum was rotated into position. The contact was substantial and I could not consistently overcome the pressure enough to lock the drum in place.
I corresponded directly with Mike about this and provided him with measurements across the top of the feed lips with the drum both empty and full.
He recently sent me the new, improved version of the feed lips that are standard equipment on the 2nd run drums.
The new feed lips cured the problem caused by the old feed lips. Now the fully loaded drum inserts and locks up effortlessly.
Lesser men would have just said "Tough cookies" but Mike spent the time and money to go back to the drawing board and cured what was not a common problem among Saiga owners. Hats off to Mike for pursuing perfection.
I will unhesitantly purchase any products Mike's fertile mind can conceive. I look forward to him going into production on a mag well adapter to eliminate the rock 'n lock method as well as a mini 12 gauge 2-3/4 drum (10 rnds).
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Yeah, no shit. That mag is way too long.
Cut the thing off, right at the top of the CSS logo and it would be fine.
Tony
I think that a ten round drum would be handier and less obtrusive. Maybe Mike can wash one of his MD 20s in hot water then throw it in the drier for a couple of hours to shrink it down to an MD 10.
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I was just browsing through several areas of the forum that I don't normally check and ran across the discussion of Magnolia State's AR-15 mag conversion for the Saiga .223. I was very impressed. If I had a .223, I'd have one of those mag converters.
If they can do a FAL mag conversion for the Saiga .308, I'll do my best to be the first in line to get one. It would solve lots of problems like magazine cost and availability as well as mag pouch problems caused by the fact that the FBMG and SureFire 20 rnd .309 mags are much taller than FAL mags.
I'll be paying close attention to this thread.
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Steve- I have a question, but please first check the following link:
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt...l%3Den%26sa%3DN
I'd like to know if I follow these instructions up to the part of removing the shepherds hook and safety latch, can I at that point simply install the retainer-part, and put it back together without further dissasembly?? is that possible?
Nice little assembly/reassemby AK site.
As to your question, the short answer is no you cannot simply insert the Krebs retainer plate at this point in the operation becuase the Krebs plate is held in position by the safety/selector lever. As near as I can tell, you must modify the BHO as described here to allow the insertion of the safety/selector lever after the BHO is installed.
Bottom line is, you can leave the shotgun bone stock or you can add the Krebs retainer plate. If you add the Krebs retainer plate, you can either leave the BHO out of the gun or modify the BHO so you can easily reassemble the safety who holds the Krebs retainer in place.
Freedom of choice is a wonderful thing. FWIW my personal choice for all my Siaga conversions (rifle and shotgun) is the retainer plate.
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0) I would really like to understand WHAT THE HELL THIS DOES - what is the point to this part?
The plate replaces the shepherds crook retaining wire and prevents the hammer and trigger pins from walking out. If either of these pins walks out, your shotgun will not function.
1) I'd love to know how to install this thing the "right" way! any help?Reassemble all the "innards" but leave the safety out. Then push the semi-circular notch at the front of the retaining plate onto the hammer pin. It's easier to do this if you pry the hammer spring away from the side of the receiver. Once the front of the retainer plate is firmly engaged with the hammer pin, rotate the plate down until its bottom semi-circular notch engages the trigger pin. Finally, insert the safety through the hole at the back of the retaining plate.
I find it makes reassembly much easier.
Be aware that Krebs makes two kinds of retainer plates and they ARE NOT interchangeable. One is for rifles. The other is for the shotgun.
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Sorry, duplicate post.
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Well I had some fitment issues. The drum fits fine when empty, but when loaded it won't lock in. Filed some at point A, and that didn't help. Finally figured out if I stuck my finger in and pushed down on the top shell, it would lock in. What do I need to do to fix this?
Stngray, Don't file anymore. I have had one other customer tell me this.
I'm "the other customer" to whom Mike is referring in his post. He and I have exchanged a number of e-mails in my attempt to solve the problem with my S-109 and his drum. Judging from the experince of others, my particular problem can probably be traced to the spotty quality control in the Izmash factory. My receiver probably is a few thousands narrower from side-to-side than those most other guys own.
The feedlips on Mike's drum are forced to open up a bit as the rounds push up under spring pressure from underneath. In my case, there's not enough room in the receiver to allow the insertion of the drum with more than a couple of rounds in it. This is not due to the fact that the top round is contacting the closed bolt. The bolt, bolt carrier, and top cover have been removed from the gun during all of the diagnostic testing. It is due to the fact that the distance between the left & right outside of the expanded feedlips is greater than the distance between the left & right sides inside the receiver.
Below are a couple of pictures of the inside of my receiver. The red circle indicates the right angle edge that I tried to round over early in the process thinking that it would solve the problem. It didn't. Not being a machinist I don't have the right tools to do the job and simply stuck my trusty Dremel into the mag well with an abrasive wheel attachment.
Mike has offered to let me beta test a new set of feedlips which will be slightly narrower in the side-to-side dimension to see if they solve the problem. This in no way reflects poorly on Mike. On the contrary, he has been more than patient with me and has shown that his concern is simply to ensure that his product is the best it can be. I have nothing but praise for him and wish him all possible success.
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Mike's drum is a marvel of engineering and makes the Saiga shotgun the ultimate short range weapon.
Following the fitting instructions I have achieved an easy, solid lock-up of the empty drum. In the process of the fitting I discovered that the pin on which the mag catch rotates can walk out of position. I haven't figured out a way to prevent this but I think a drop of loctite might work.
In working with the drum I've discovered that it fits the gun much better when it's empty. With 20 rounds in it the drum requires two hands to rotate fully into position and some serious muscle to remove. What's happening is that the feed lips are being forced apart as rounds are added and contacting the inside walls of the receiver as the drum is rotated into position.
With no rounds in the mag the distance between the outside, top, rear of the feed lip assembly is 1.145". Loaded with 20 rounds this measurement increases to 1.155". Having inserted and removed the fully loaded mag several dozen times there is clearly discernable wear on the outside of the feed lip assemby where it rubs solidly against the receiver.
All I can think of to alleviate this situtation is to put my trusty Dremel to work to grind away .005" from both sides of the receiver where the mag feed lips make contact.
As a comparison, the 5 round mags I bought from keepshooting.com measure 1.136 across the top, rear of the feed lips.
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. . . anyone finding it alost impossible to hold the front end with the drum in?
I have the factory forend and the drum requires that I move my support hand as far forward as possible to achieve a good grip. A small price to pay for immediate access to 20 rounds of 00 buck. What a wicked home defense weapon. And the "cool" factor is in the stratosphere.
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I will have to look it over and see how well it will work with my Kreb's Retainer plate.
In fact, I'm using a retainer plate. It works perfectly with this set up. I find the plate to be the easiest and most convenient method for preventing the hammer and trigger pins from walking out. It also makes reassembly easier. During reassembly I follow this sequence:
1. Drop in the trigger assembly
2. Drop in the bolt hold open
3. Using the dental floss trick pull the BHO spring into place
4. Put in the trigger pin
5. Swear a lot while pushing the hammer and its spring into place
6. Put in the hammer pin
--- a. Wipe the blood off my fingers from wrestling with the hammer and its spring
--- b. Apologize to my wife for swearing
--- c. Try to explain to my wife why I was swearing
7. Put in the retainer plate
8. Put in the safety
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I ordered one of Mike's 20 round drums before I had a Saiga 12 in hand. After ordering the drum I bought the shotgun. This was before the Saiga supply dried up and you could still buy one for less than $400. So I've been tinkering with the gun and doing the pistol grip conversion slowly while waiting for the drum to arrive. Wouldn't you know it. The drum arrived two weeks ago so I had to get serious about finishing the conversion.
All went well until I tried to get the safety and the bolt hold open both installed. I could get either one in by itself but not both together. So I did multiple searches of the forum looking to capitalize on the experince of others. I found lots of posts describing the problem and a couple that talked about fixing it but none in great detail.
So, as my way of giving back to the forum for all the help it has given me in my several conversions, I will detail here my solution to the BHO / safety problem.
Here, obviously, is my modified BHO. The modification is the semi-circular cut-out along the right edge. When the BHO is pushed to its uppermost position this cut-out will align with the hole in the receiver through which the safety must pass during its installation. To perform the modification I installed the BHO in the usual manner, held it to its upper limit of travel, used a #2 pencil to scribe the safety hole onto the BHO, took the BHO out of the gun, and introduced it to Mr. Dremel.
Here's a picture of the guts of the receiver with the BHO installed. The modification to the BHO is readily visible.
Here's a shot of the safety hole in the receiver with the BHO installed and in its uppermost position. You can just see the edges of the cut-out in the BHO. You can also see the hole on the opposite side of the receiver into which the safety fits.
Finally, here's the right side of the receiver again but this time the BHO is being held down by the BHO spring in its lower most position.
This modification allows you to reassemble the shotgun in the same way as the 7.62x39 or the .308. The safety is the last thing to go into the receiver (except for the bolt carrier, bolt, and recoil spring - remember, if you have pieces left over, you've got a problem
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The drum won't lock in with 20 rds on a closed bolt. You will need to lock or hold the bolt back before locking it in fully loaded.
Hey Mike! Job well done!
I was not perfectly clear in my post. The fully loaded (20 rnds) drum will not lock into my gun with the bolt open. I haven't fully diagnosed the problem but my initial inspection leads me to believe there is a part of the gun that is contacting the top round. This part is pushing down on the rounds as the drum is inserted.
After dinner tonight I will disassemble the gun and play with it and the drum to further diagnose the problem.
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As did many others, I received my drum this past week. Following Mike's excellent instructions I completely disassembled the drum, dusted the inside with graphite, and reassembled it with no problems. I find the design to be ingeniously simple. I am very proud of Mike for coming up with the idea, following through to make it a reality, and persevering when things didn't go as planned. Mike embodies the true American spirit of entrepreneurship.
Back to the drum.
I took it to the range for the first time today. When empty it locked into the gun easily and solidly. Loaded to its max of 20 rounds it would not lock in place. Downloaded to 19 rounds it would lock in without any issues. Except for this particular glitch it functioned smoothly and flawlessly.
I accidentally performed a drop test onto concrete with 20 rounds in the drum. That's when I discovered it didn't lock in place with all twenty rounds loaded. The drop test proved how well the thing is made. No cracks, dents, bumps, or bruises.
As this week begins I will be trying to figure out how to overcome its failure to lock in place with twenty rounds loaded. Shouldn't be a big deal.
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I spent some hours trying to diagnose why I couldn't get my fully loaded (20 rnds) drum to lock in place (with the bolt open). Finally I discovered that the pin that holds the mag catch to its housing had walked out enough to allow the mag catch to tilt ever so slightly to one side. This caused the engagement surface of the catch to be higher than normal on one side. Once I drifted the pin back into position I was able to get the mag to lock in place.
Further experimentation today revealed that the fully loaded drum was much easier to lock in place when the Tromix shark brake was jammed into the rug on the floor than when the muzzle was elevated toward the ceiling. My theory was that the weight of a fully loaded drum was adversly affecting my ability to keep the forward locking lug of the drum pushed forward while at the same time rotating the drum up.
Assuming my theory was correct, I carefully dressed the top of the rear locking lug with a fine cut file. Voila! I achieved drum nirvana. The drum now locks in place no matter in which direction the barrel is pointed. I'm a happy camper.
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That style of brake absolutely works on an S-308. I strongly suggest you go to Dinzag's website and check out the various muzzle brakes he offers. He worked up one of these kinds of brakes with a 9/16 LH thread per my specifications. Make sure you get a crush washer also so you can index the brake on the barrel.
The recoil reduction is quite noticeable.
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Here is an idea for guys with the new guns with a riveted front sight. HiViz Plain Barrel snap on sight trimmed to fit and then Loctite Extreme to hold in place. Same height as factory.
I thought this was a great idea so I ordered one of these sights. It arrived today and now I'm trying to figure out what you did to get it to fit because the HiViz is considerably smaller than the S-12 gas block. Did you cut away the "skirt" of the HiViz or what?
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I remembered reading a post or two about substituting a 1911 recoil spring for the front recoil spring on the Saiga and thought I'd give it a try just for fun. So, today I replaced the OEM front recoil spring with an 11.5lb variable Wolff 1911 recoil spring and headed off to the range. I have a case of Winchester AA 2 3/4", 1 1/8 oz, #8 birdshot Light Target Load ammo that has never even come close to functioning in my IZ-109.
Different story today. As long as I shouldered the shotgun, it ran perfectly with these light loads. It would not function when fired from the hip. Interestingly, it made no difference if the gas setting was on 1 or 2. It functioned the same on both settings. So I can confirm that using 1911 springs in the Saiga works. However, I wouldn't want to run heavy loads without putting the OEM front recoil spring back in.
So now I'm saving the rest of the case of these light loads to put through Mike's drum when it arrives.
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This condition is not unusual for the Saiga. Mine will not function with light target loads. It all has to do with how much gas is in the barrel and for how long after pulling the trigger. Being a semi-auto that is dependent upon gas to function it has a set of parameters within which it will function.
The light target loads don't generate enough gas to function the gun even on setting two. You'll have to experiment to find which ammo your gun likes and which ammo it doesn't like. Suffice it to say the Saiga likes the the hot stuff.
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Try taking the brake off to see how it affects the situation.
So I took the brake off and went to the range. Guess what. The smack of the stock against my cheek was almost completely eliminated. All I can figure is that as the gas was directed up by the holes in the brake it forced the muzzle down (a good thing) which somehow caused the butt to jump up which then smacked my cheek.
However, for this scenario to work it would mean the gun must be using my support hand as a pivot point.
I will continue to experiment.
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I forgot to mention that I have a Tromix shark brake installed on the barrel.
I have to admit I'm more of a rilfe guy than a shotgun guy and I was taught by Uncle Sam to maintain a consistent cheek weld. Maybe it's time to learn something new. The problem is it's difficult lining up the sights without getting my cheek down onto the stock.
A piece of foam might do the trick if I can figure out the technical aspects of attaching it properly.
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I have converted several Saiga 308s and put several hundred rounds through them without incident or complaint so I thought my IZ-109 conversion would follow the same path.
A little extra drilling and cutting was required with the 12 guage but nothing beyond the capabilities of my trusty Dremel tool.
Instead of installing a Red Star trigger like I did for the 308s I put in a Tapco G2 FCG. I experienced a couple of trigger slaps with the Tapco at first but easily fixed that.
I really like the fixed Ace AK skeleton stock on the 308s so I installed one on the 12 guage using the internal receiver block. Yesterday I was shooting Winchester bulk pack 7 1/2 birdshot on gas setting #1. Unlike the 308s, I'm getting noticeably smacked on the cheek by the 12 guage. When I shoot I maintain a good cheek weld with the stock but it doesn't make any difference how tight I lean into it, I still get smacked.
Call me a wussie if you have to but this is my first experience getting cheek slapped (by a firearm) and I'd rather not put up with it.
Does anyone have any experience with this phenomenon and how to make it stop?
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Hey Steve,
what setting do you have your gas port on?
Just curious,..
-GG
I tried it on #1 first just to see what would happen. On #1 the gun became a single-shot, magazine-fed weapon. On #2 the bolt / bolt carrier came back far enough to cock the hammer but not far enough to eject the empty. Each empty made it only part way out of the ejection port before being caught by the returning bolt / bolt carrier.
After reading of other's experiences with various ammo, I really had no expectation that these light target loads would function the shotgun. But it was a nice day and I wanted to get out of the house. As an aside, my son rolled up a nice sized ball of snow on the range which he then blasted to smithereens with a single round of this stuff.
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Winchester AA super sport or super handicap
Having just returned from the range I can tell you that mine doesn't like Winchester AA Light Target either. Not enough oomph to function the action.
Reduced recoil springs?
in Saiga-12
Posted
You are correct. I replace the front spring with an 11lb 1911 recoil spring when shooting the light, bulk pack birdshot from Walmart. It really does work.