.410 Reloading Question From Beginner

[Psee 0]

(Know there's a separate forum for reloading but thought you guys would have more experience with .410s.)

 

Really getting hit hard on the budget buying shells at almost 50 cents a shell and not going to be able to afford a normal stock of ammo at this rate. Only had the gun for little over a month and have already spent as much as the Saiga cost.

 

Been checking the prices for reloaders and it looks like it takes a couple hundred bucks for the equipment not including powder, shot, etc..

Since I'm a complete beginner just wanted to know the pros/cons of reloading verses buying. As far a volume, currently going through 30-40 rounds a week. Also any recommendations for books/equipment/suppliers would be appreciated.

[Mountain Doctor 0]

I'm in a similar position. My research shows that this is probably the best way to go, and it's pretty cheap. It would not take long to recoup your investment. Besides, reloading is fun (for me at least). You will also be able to custom make loads that are not available commercially. It is also inexpensively converted to other gauges.

 

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/...&t=11082005

[turbo1889 1]

. . . As far a volume, currently going through 30-40 rounds a week. . .

 

Two questions:

 

~Are you completely new to reloading in general or just shotshell reloading ?

 

~Do you have a 2-1/2" mag for your S-410 ?

 

If you have metallic reloading experience and equipment and/or a 2-1/2" mag and are content with that lighter load shell length there is a way to load your volume without a lot of expense in additional equipment.

[Psee 0]

Thanks for the link Mountain Doctor, looks like a good press. (Just bought some bulk Golden Bear buckshot from Sportsman's Guide today for the same price as the press, ouch...)

 

turbo1889, I'm completely new to reloading but technically oriented. Shouldn't have any problems with the equipment and procedures although a little concerned about possible safety issues.

 

Only have 3" mags at this point but migrating to 2.5" mags would be fine if it would lower the overall cost of the rounds. My primary use (other than defense) is target plinking and small game hunting (armadillos, squirrels, etc.).

[turbo1889 1]

I'm in a similar position. My research shows that this is probably the best way to go, and it's pretty cheap. It would not take long to recoup your investment. Besides, reloading is fun (for me at least). You will also be able to custom make loads that are not available commercially. It is also inexpensively converted to other gauges.

 

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/...&t=11082005

 

Please note that the press that link leads to does not size the shell unless your shooting unusually light loads in your S-410 or loading fresh never fired hulls (loading not re-loading) this is not what you need. A "Size-Master" is necessary for reloading the shells the S-410 (and most other auto-loaders) spits out due to the fact that the brass base of the shells has been bulged out slightly where the extractor grabs the shell rim. Thus the shell if reloaded without being sized will only load into the S-410 in one position. If such a shell is rotated from that position it will not chamber correctly and will jamb up the gun, obviously even with the most percise and carefull loading of your mag you can never get them to line up perfect every time, especially with the S-410's rotary bolt mechanism. You need a sizemaster ( http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/...leitemid=450005 ) or the 600-Jr. press plus a manual hull sizing unit ( http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/...leitemid=799292 )

 

Sorry, not trying to spoil the party, just don't want you guys realizing that after you buy.

 

 

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Now, as far as what I was saying about the 2-1/2" shells possibily being cheaper as far as up-front cost to get into loading. That is a possibility if you already reload metallic cartridges and have all the goodies for metallic reloading. What you do is get some 410-bore 2-1/4" full length metallic hulls and load them up using your existing equipment. The only thing out of pocket is the components for the load including the hulls. A 2-1/4" full length metallic hull is equivalent as far as loading goes to a 2-1/2" plastic hull.

 

 

So if you want to go with metallic 2-1/4" shells you buy these hulls ~ http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/...leitemid=151679

 

Then you need the following metallic reloading equipment from your stash:

~ ~ Reloading press

~ ~ Shell holder normally used for .303-brit.

~ ~ Universal deprime only die

~ ~ Lee carbide Factory Crimp Die for 45-ACP

~ ~ Means to seat Large Pistol primers in the brass hull (ram prime, prime on press, hand prime, etc.)

~ ~ Powder scale

~ ~ Reloading powder funnel

~ ~ Pencil, pen, or other similar sized and shaped object.

 

For components/materials you need:

~ ~ LP or MLP primers (Win. blue box works great)

~ ~ Powder and load data for 2-1/2" shells, the full length metallic hulls are significantly stronger so you can use data for any brand plastic shell with complete safety.

~ ~ Your choice of modern plastic shot wads

~ ~ Bag of over-size 410 over-shot cards one to go over the powder under the plastic wad and one to go over the shot and cap off the cartridge.

~ ~ Regular old "school supplies section of department store" glue stick

 

So this is what you do to reload the little buggers:

 

~ ~ 1. Deprime the empty cases using the .303-brit shell holder and the deprime die.

~ ~ 2. Take the Lee carbide FCD die and remove both the top adjusting screw and the innner crimping ring and then run the cases through this to size them (still using shell holder).

~ ~ 3. Prime the cases with your choice of either MLP or LP primers just as you would with a metallic cartridge.

~ ~ 4. Weigh out your powder charge on the scale and charge the cases using the funnel.

~ ~ 5. Insurt the first over-sized, over-shot card and push it down snug over the powder with the back (flat) end of the pen/pencil.

~ ~ 6. Insurt the modern plastic wad and push in tight if needed with pen/pencil in a similar matter.

~ ~ 7. Weigh out shot charge (1/2oz = 218.75gr.) and pore in using funnel.

~ ~ 8. Roll edge of second over-sized, over-shot card along top of glue stick and then gently press into place on top of shot.

~ ~ 9. Allow hour or so for glue to dry.

 

 

 

This is how I make hundreds and hundreds of 410 loads until I finally got a real loader for plastic shells -- I already had all the metallic reloading equipment and just needed to buy the necessary components and I was off and running. And, no, I didn't come up with that all by myself. That is the recommended loading sequence for the 2-1/4" full length metallic hulls.

 

You can also try to find yourself an antique Lee Loader tool in the 410 guage (two sizes one for 2-1/2" paper/plastic shells and the other for 3" paper/plastic shells). They were originally designed for loading paper shells so with modern plastic ones a couple gentle taps with a rubber hammer is necessary to provide the extra "umph" to close the plastic fold crimp. However, just like the MEC 600-Jr. these do not fully size the brass head which is almost absolutely necessary when reloading hulls from a S-410. So you have to use the a reloading press and Lee carbide FCD for 45-ACP with the "guts" removed leaving only the carbide sizer unit to take the bulge out of the brass head. Unfortionatly, because the plastic shells have a much weaker head then the full length metallic shells it is often necessary to size the head all the way down to the rim which is done by placing the hull on top of the shell holder rather then in it and then pressing the hull into the die until the top of the rim just makes contact with the bottom of the die. Then the ram is lowered and a short length of 1/4" wooden dowel or similar item along with a rubber hammer is used to force the hull back out the bottom of the die by tapping from above with the dowel inside the hull.

 

And then, oh yes, it is possible to reload even the plastic hulls with nothing but determination and various equipment and tools only some of which are metallic reloading equipment. But that process is even more "interesting" and thus I will save you from the details.

 

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In the final analysis the easiest way to reload the 410 is to get a Size-Master and reload the conventional modern plastic hulls with readily available components.

 

If you have the neccessary metallic reloading stuff you can also reload the full length metallic 2-1/4" cases without a lot of trouble and this could save you putting out several hundred for a shotshell press.

 

If your reloading for a 410 which doesn't put bulges in the brass base of the fired hulls (Not the S-410 !!!) you can reload the 410 shells for that gun with nothing but common handtools and hosehold items and plenty of determination. I've thought of doing a video on U-tube of that one just for sh*ts and giggles. I mean we are talking reloading the shells with nothing other then a couple washers, a large nail, a tuper-ware container lid, a hammer (or even a rock), a pen, and commonly available empty cartridge brass to measure shot and powder. Totally "red-neck" way of reloading and it works but it's not something to do up a couple hundred loads at a time with. A box of 25 will take an hour on the kitchen table.

 

If your reloading for a 410 which does put the bulges in the brass head such as the S-410 you need to add to that a way to resize the brass head back down to original dimensions. Best way to do that without a proper shot-shell hull sizer is with a reloading press, 303-brit shell holder, and Lee carbide FCD for 45-ACP with the "guts" removed leaving only the carbide sizer unit. The head section on the full length metallic hulls is so much stronger that unless your loads are way too hot you'll never need to size the little bit of head that's inside the shell-holder. With plastic shells, however, you usually have to do the stunt of putting them on top of the shell holder and pressing them into the die and them poping them pack out with a dowel and rubber hammer from the top. Another really fun part about the plastic shells when loading without a dedicated shotshell press is figuring out how to deprime and reprime them. A standard deprime only metallic reloading die will mearly gut the 209 primer and leave the outer part of the primer still firmly logged in the primer pocket. And then repriming gets really interesting as well since there is no hand priming tool for 209 primers.

 

 

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So, hopefully after reading all that you guys will be convinced to either just buy a dedicated 410 shot shell reloading press that fully sizes the brass head on the hull or if you got all the metallic reloading equipment just buy the, strong-head, regular pistol primer accepting, Magtech full length metallic hulls. All other options lead to a barren land where only mad-men and "tinkerers" such as myself wander.

Edited February 9, 2008 by turbo1889

[Psee 0]

Great info Turbo1889!! Thanks for all the tips and procedures. (Spent the last 2 hours studying your post and checking the equipment involved.)

 

At this point think I'll hold off purchasing any equipment and buy a good book on reloading since It's a little more challenging than I had originally anticipated and want to make sure it's something I can handle.

 

Thanks again

[Mountain Doctor 0]

Outstanding post. I'll take it to heart and use your methods. I already have most of the supplies from my reloading hobby.

[Twinsen 86]

Yeah, you might want to make that a topic to get stickied here.

[turbo1889 1]

I'm in a similar position. My research shows that this is probably the best way to go, and it's pretty cheap. It would not take long to recoup your investment. Besides, reloading is fun (for me at least). You will also be able to custom make loads that are not available commercially. It is also inexpensively converted to other gauges.

 

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/...&t=11082005

 

Please note that the press that link leads to does not size the shell unless your shooting unusually light loads in your S-410 or loading fresh never fired hulls (loading not re-loading) this is not what you need. A "Size-Master" is necessary for reloading the shells the S-410 (and most other auto-loaders) spits out due to the fact that the brass base of the shells has been bulged out slightly where the extractor grabs the shell rim. Thus the shell if reloaded without being sized will only load into the S-410 in one position. If such a shell is rotated from that position it will not chamber correctly and will jamb up the gun, obviously even with the most percise and carefull loading of your mag you can never get them to line up perfect every time, especially with the S-410's rotary bolt mechanism. You need a sizemaster ( http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/...leitemid=450005 ) or the 600-Jr. press plus a manual hull sizing unit ( http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/...leitemid=799292 )

 

Sorry, not trying to spoil the party, just don't want you guys realizing that after you buy. . . .

 

 

Okay guys, I have received some information regarding the MEC 600-Jr. from another individual who has this machine and read my post above. It appears that you have a major apology coming from me. Apparently I have been spreading misinformation via. second hand. I originally bought my MEC SizeMaster because I was clearly told that the regular 600-Jr. did not size the shells and that I needed this feature for any auto-loading gun. It is true that sizing the head is necessary for auto-loading shotguns. However, the 600-Jr. does indeed size the head it's just that it uses a cheaper steel "sizing ring" rather then the more expensive collet sizer that my MEC SizeMaster has. So I was led astray and bought a more expensive machine then I actually needed and was unwitingly spreading the false information.

 

Here is a direct link to the official owners manul for the cheaper 600-Jr. machine that clearly shows that it does indeed size the head: 600-Jr. Mark-5

 

My deapest appologies ---

 

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Great info Turbo1889!! Thanks for all the tips and procedures. (Spent the last 2 hours studying your post and checking the equipment involved.)

 

At this point think I'll hold off purchasing any equipment and buy a good book on reloading since It's a little more challenging than I had originally anticipated and want to make sure it's something I can handle.

 

Thanks again

 

Good call about doing plenty of research, apparently I need to do more as well. You might want to jump over to a dedicated shotgun shell reloading forum for a little reading and question asking specifically about reloading the 410. You could also check out mecreloaders.com there is lots of information there and you can actually look at the instruction manuals for the machines, etc.

 

Don't get too scared away by my post, though, I went a lot further into depth the I probably should have. Basically what I was trying to say was that there are two "good" paths to follow. For the guy/gal with no reloading experience/equipment whatsoever your best bet IMHO is a MEC machine. For the guy/gal who is already reloading metallic cartridges and has the equipment getting some full length metallic cases and loading them for his/her 410 shotgun with those is a very appealing option. You shouldn't trust my word completely as well apparently.

 

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Outstanding post. I'll take it to heart and use your methods. I already have most of the supplies from my reloading hobby.

 

Forgot to tell you where to get "over-size 410 over-shot cards": http://www.circlefly.com Check the section labled "Wad Sizing Chart" and then the "Product" section. Or if you wish it is possible to get a puch set and punch your own from cereal box cardboard but that is more time and effort to save only a little bit of $.

Edited February 10, 2008 by turbo1889

[Mountain Doctor 0]

Kudos to Turbo for two reasons.

 

One, his sharing of his sizable knowledge regarding shotshell reloading and;

 

Two, his catching a small error in his post and correcting it and making sure we knew about the error.

 

This is a great forum, I'm happy to be a part of it.