The Law of Unintended Consequences

[jhereg 0]

jhereg, if you followed the conversation you can see i'm not saying he should use this in a place where everyone is carrying a gun. I'm presenting effective self-defense methods OTHER than firearms, because apparently you guys think a firearm is the ONLY way to defend yourself. Of course it won't work if everyone carries a gun because they don't value human life enough to make the slight effort of switching to non-lethal weapons.

 

It's because I value human life I'm not going to play w/ "less than lethal" weapons. (Non-lethal is not strictly true for most of them.) Like almost everyone I know who carries a weapon I avoid conflict. I de-escalate a situation by choice instead of using *any* sort of force. I have had several situations over the years where I could have legally have used force & killed someone, but I managed to defuse the problem. If it comes time to use a weapon, then it's time to protect the lives of those that matter. I'll list everyone that matters in the order we save them.

1) My family

2) Me

3) Innocent people around me who need help.

 

I'm willing to risk myself to save an innocent bystander, but the criminals are not in that list. I won't set out to harm one of them, but I won't shed many tears if one of them earns a Darwin Award for his actions. IMO you are majorly wrong w/ your attitude on less than lethal weapons. I have pesonally heard of too many cases of them not working. They add complexity to a conflict, add another choice to an already difficult decision on the use of force, and when they fail you are well & truly F'd because you probably won't have time to react to the failure & implement a new plan.

 

I don't attack other people. I don't start fights. (Hmm. Sounds kind of like John Wayne in "The Shotist" "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them." Except I really don't care if you insult me, but be prepared for a sharp reply if you do!) Once someone else starts the fight my goal is to stop it w/ the minimum amount of damage to the 3 groups listed above. If the Tango gets hurt in the process, it sucks to be him. If they live through the experience, maybe they will choose another profession.

[Agias 0]

Well hang on Agias, I'm not jumping your side, I just said what I said.

I didn't think you are for a moment. You just said what you said. And it's pretty much the first post here that i agree with.

 

 

Dude! That's a feakin blank fring gun.

 

A BLANK FIRING GUN

 

Are you fucking kidding?

Not necessarily. It can be loaded with blank rounds, but its main use in europe is to fire cartridges that don't leave the barrel but project various chemicals to disable an attacker. Do your homework before you give me that looks

Edited June 3, 2008 by Agias

[ClickClickD'oh 1]

It can be loaded with blank rounds, but its main use in europe is to fire cartridges that don't leave the barrel but project various chemicals to disable an attacker. Do your homework before you give me that looks

So it's an OC can with none of the advantages of an OC can. Brilliant. It's neither small, nor light, nor can project a constant stream. That's craptastic! This is seriously the most retarded concept in self defense since the CCW badge.

 

Seriously, before this goes any farther, how much experience do you really have in employing lethal, less than lethal and empty handed defense measures? You see, the very fact that you think OC or CS are actually effective defense measures tells me that you have never, ever, not once had to employee these measures or even been trained to employee these measures. OC works occasionally, CS works once in a blue moon (ever wonder why LEOs switched from mace to pepper spray?). The reality is though that when your life is on the line you need the option that will work every time. None of those options you have listed cut it. LEOs get away with using them because they can summon a dozen of their LEO friends to all put the collective hurt on. You can't.

 

Sure, kung fu might work for the well trained and physically fit amongst us. Heck a lock on a string works just as many wonders for bad guy bashing. But! Grandma isn't going to be kung fu fighting with the middle of the night visitor and some fresh off the farm 110lb freshman co-ed isn't going to be grecko roman wrestling with her 300lb fresh from the state pen rapist.

 

And you, you can shoot your PCP hyped attacker all you want with your stupid little CS gun. He isn't even going to flinch on his way to tearing your spleen out and beating your face concave with it. Maybe you will die happy with the knowledge that you didn't use a real gun to defend yourself, but I gaurantee you the officers working the murder scene will be knuckling their skulls wondering what the hell you thought you were going to do with that peice of garbage.

 

So take it from those of us that have employed just about every lethal and non-lethal wepaon system immaginable. Use the best damn weapon you can get your hands on and use effectively. Guns top that list for most people, especially the young, old, infirm or disabled. If you deny these people the right to use that weapon to defend themselves, you have violated their basic human rights by telling them that they aren't as worthy as other people to defend themselves. The right to self defense means the right to effective self defense. Not, You're screwed because you aren't a twenty three year old man in the peak of physical condition.

 

So seriously, in all honesty. Forget the stupid blank gun. Because if you did count on that to save your life a guy with his belt is going to kill you some day.

[Agias 0]

Seriously, before this goes any farther, how much experience do you really have in employing lethal, less than lethal and empty handed defense measures? You see, the very fact that you think OC or CS are actually effective defense measures tells me that you have never, ever, not once had to employee these measures or even been trained to employee these measures. OC works occasionally, CS works once in a blue moon (ever wonder why LEOs switched from mace to pepper spray?).

I have seen about 20-30 people hit with cs, oc or pepper load from this little gun, by others and myself, and i was hit by a few so i think i have more experience with them than you. and the result was satisfying in all cases.

 

By the time someone attacks me from 2-3 meters range i've already let off 4 (or more if i take my full-auto version) shots of three kinds of loads (while i'm reversing)that he's guaranteed to run into and be rendered harmless. Even a few seconds are enough for me to get away, but this thing lasted longer every time i used it or seen it used.

Edited June 3, 2008 by Agias

[ClickClickD'oh 1]

I have seen about 20-30 people hit with cs, oc or pepper load from this little gun, by others and myself, and i was hit by a few so i think i have more experience with them than you. and the result was satisfying in all cases.

You know that getting a OC hosing is part of LEO qualification in the US right? Well in case you didn't, you do now. Added to the numerous number of times I managed to OC myself, or be OC'd by fellow officers, while trying to detain a suspect.. I think I've been subjected to far more of the stuff than you ever could imagine.

By the time someone attacks me from 2-3 meters range i've already let off 7 (or more if i take my full-auto version) shots of three kinds of loads that he's guaranteed to run into and be rendered harmless.

Bullshit.

 

Pure and simple bullshit.

 

This assumes that 1) Your target presents itself at range -and- 2) OC will stop a determined attacker.

Edited June 3, 2008 by ClickClickD'oh

[Agias 0]

Bullshit.

 

Pure and simple bullshit.

 

This assumes that 1) Your target presents itself at range -and- 2) OC will stop a determined attacker.

 

Well, if you let a potential attacker closer to you than that you deserve what you get. And yes, CS, OC or pepper, at least one of them WILL stop the bastard.

Remember i'm not likely to fight mazochist cops or leos(wtf is a leo) who OC themselves to feel more manly. Your average attacker is a pitty little drunken idiot who's hoping to get your money or an easy subject to pick on.

 

Bullshit? Nice one offending me personally because you can't come back with a decent argument.

Edited June 3, 2008 by Agias

[ClickClickD'oh 1]

Well, if you let a potential attacker closer to you than that you deserve what you get.

 

Eegads. I didn't realize you were psychic! Just how far away from a person are you able to detect the evil intents in their thoughts? Could you pretty please train teh rest of the world your full proof method for detecting bad guys?

 

You are so full of crap it's hysterical.

 

 

And yes, CS, OC or pepper, at least one of them WILL stop the bastard.

Okay, I'll ask again. Just how many times have you used one of the above to actually stop an attack in progress? How many violent thugs have you felled with those methods?

[Agias 0]

And yes, CS, OC or pepper, at least one of them WILL stop the bastard.

Okay, I'll ask again. Just how many times have you used one of the above to actually stop an attack in progress? How many violent thugs have you felled with those methods?

I'll ask, can you read? We've tested this plenty of times in simulated assaults. And yes i had to use it live once. And if you can't spot a troublesome one asking for some pepper in the face i feel sorry for you, mister ohmygoditrainthisandthat

Edited June 3, 2008 by Agias

[ClickClickD'oh 1]

I'll ask, can you read? We've tested this plenty of times in simulated assaults.

The real thing genious. Simulated doesn't count for shit.

 

How many times have you done this for real?

 

And yes i had to use it live once.

Bullshit. Want to know how I can tell? Keep going.

And if you can't spot a troublesome one asking for some pepper in the face i feel sorry for you, mister ohmygoditrainthisandthat

Fucking poser. Edited June 3, 2008 by ClickClickD'oh

[Agias 0]

Eh, if you can't post anything intelligent instead of just denying my replies, why don't you shut up and let the intelligent people do the discussions? I'd say you're the poser out of the two of us. From what you're saying i assume you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

Simulation doesn't count, eh? I think a guy rushing at you from 2 meters without the intentions of killing you isn't much different from a guy rushing at you from 2 meters WITH the intentions of killing you just because the knife isn't real.

Edited June 3, 2008 by Agias

[ClickClickD'oh 1]

why don't you shut up and let the intelligent people do the discussions?

BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHHAHA!

 

Whatever poser. Did you have ballistic plates duck taped to your chest. You are so full of shit.

[Agias 0]

why don't you shut up and let the intelligent people do the discussions?

BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHHAHA!

 

Whatever poser. Did you have ballistic plates duck taped to your chest. You are so full of shit.

You're ridiculous. You still don't come up with a reason for WHY my claims are untrue, all you manage to do is call me a liar.

[ClickClickD'oh 1]

You still don't come up with a reason for WHY my claims are untrue....

Yeah, I did smart guy.

 

My actual military training and experience. My actual LEO training and experience. My current line of work as the owner and participant in an armed executive protection agency. Remember those things in the posts above? You know, been there, done that, eaten the OC?

 

Pathetic. Typical though. Won't listen to boots on the ground experience because you've gone and convinced yourself of your wonder toy.

 

Do yourself a favor. Listen to experience on this one before your stupid idea gets you killed.

 

If you don't want to listen to me, just go to YouTube and watch any number of videos where a half dozen cops get to wrestle with an OC coated suspect that wasn't magically stopped by the OC. Seriously, if a .45 through the ticker doesn't stop a guy dead in his tracts, what makes you think OC is going to do it?

Edited June 3, 2008 by ClickClickD'oh

[Agias 0]

Is there anything you can say apart from your supposed "experience"? I'm asking, because "because i said so" is not a valid argument. Show me an actual explaination as to why my statements are wrong, instead of just the usual "because i said so" you've been going on with for about a page now. Before you arrived this discussion was somewhat intelligent. Ever wondered why the rest of the world thinks americans are dumb? Because of your kind.

[ClickClickD'oh 1]

Is there anything you can say apart from your supposed "experience"?

Are you kidding?

 

I'm asking, because "because i said so" is not a valid argument.

Oh JC.

Before you arrived this discussion was somewhat intelligent.

Is that what you call passing off bullshit unchallenged? Intelligent discussion?

 

Ever wondered why the rest of the world thinks americans are dumb? Because of your kind.

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah.

 

Fine. No skin off my back if you get yourself killed with your fool blank pistol shooting OC/CS or what ever other stupid thing you put in it. Use real OC (and prepare for a right royal ass whupping) or use a real gun, not a gimped hybird of the two.

[Agias 0]

Heh, you STILL didn't come up with a half decent reply, even though i specificly asked you to explain it. That pretty much proves my point, thank you. I'm done talking to you.

[ClickClickD'oh 1]

Heh, you STILL didn't come up with a half decent reply, even though i specificly asked you to explain it. That pretty much proves my point, thank you. I'm done talking to you.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see?"

[Agias 0]

Heh, you STILL didn't come up with a half decent reply, even though i specificly asked you to explain it. That pretty much proves my point, thank you. I'm done talking to you.

"There are none so blind as those who will not see?"

Yeah? Which part of your reply was explaining the facts behind your opinion? "Are you kidding?", "blablabla", or perhaps "JC?" If you're not willing to say anything other than "because i said so" why do you join an argument in the first place?

[ready2go 0]

Agias obviously you have only used your oc/cs gun in scenarios. True life is totally different, actors are not the same as real suspects. Have you ever used your oc/cs on somebody high on meth, pcp has no pain tolerance, obviosly not. i have been in situations after spraying the guy with oc, pepperball and taser and that was not enough. Don't try to tell the people living the dream what works and what doesn't.

[Agias 0]

Agias obviously you have only used your oc/cs gun in scenarios. True life is totally different, actors are not the same as real suspects. Have you ever used your oc/cs on somebody high on meth, pcp has no pain tolerance, obviosly not. i have been in situations after spraying the guy with oc, pepperball and taser and that was not enough. Don't try to tell the people living the dream what works and what doesn't.

You know, in Hungary not every other punk is high on some trash. American dream? No offense meant but i'd rather say american nightmare. I'd never live in a country filled with drugs, gang bangers, psychos and spoiled kids where i'd have to be afraid of someone attacking me at any moment.

 

And obviously you didn't care to read through the topic before posting, as i obviously stated that i have used it live.

Edited June 3, 2008 by Agias

[ClickClickD'oh 1]

If you're not willing to say anything other than "because i said so" why do you join an argument in the first place?

I see that I gave you too much credit and assumed that you knew how your defensive weapon systems operated.

 

I now see that I must explain some very rudimentary facts that even my pacifist little sister knows. Other than, listen to the guy who has the been there done that t-shirt, because he's been there done that and you haven't.

 

Other than that, some simple basics. OC and CS essentially work by generating pain and discomfort. They don't actually have any real debilitating effects. Tears in the eyes and scratchy throats have never debilitated anybody. Therefore, they require the brain to be functioning in a normal manner to deter a person. Things like adrenalin, narcotics and alcohol prevent the normal pain functions in the brain from operating. Ever wonder why a really drunk person is said to be "feeling no pain"? Guess what the guys in your "class" also didn't have drumming in their veins? If the brain isn't operating normal, OC or CS won't do a damn skippy thing because the brain doesn't care. That's why guys on PCP can do such amazing things. They aren't suddenly stronger, the brain just doesn't care that they are ripping their muscles off their bones. No pain inhibitors anymore. Same thing with adrenalin. I'm sure you've heard the stories of distraught mother moving a car off her child? Well guess what, they're mostly true. The human body does amazing things on adrenalin. Not because it's stronger than normal, but because it ignores it's limits. By ignoring the normal pain feedbacks that tell us what our limits are. That's why you can shoot your hopped up attacker all you want with your silly ass OC gun gun and he'll still bash your skull in. More shoots won't matter. More OC doesn't make the burn any worse, it just adds more mess to clean up. If he doesn't care about the first dose of OC you shoot him with, he won't care about the fifteenth you shoot him with. Heck, your hopped up attacker won't even care when you shoot his heart out with a .45. He won't feel it. But, shooting him again helps since you put more holes in him and make his guts stop working faster. Of course right about now you are saying, "yeah, but what are the chances that an attacker will be drunk/stoned/full of adrenalin? It's not likely!" Well, yeah it is. In fact, it's almost certain. Drugs and alcohol are involved in almost every violent attack I've ever worked. But hey, that's personal experience again.. and apparently experience doesn't count worth hogwash to you.

 

So there you go. A class in the basiscs that I had assumed everyone that had the fortitude to actually show up and enter this topic should already know.

 

Get it now?

 

PS: While you are getting an edumacation, check out the 21 foot rule. It's slightly more than your "2-3 meters range"

 

As i said, you clearly don't know what you are talking about. It's obvious in several different ways.

[Agias 0]

Now that's more like it. I have to agree with the drunk paragraph for most part, but the combination of CS and pepper should at the very least disorient him and mess up his vision for long enough for me to leg it

 

And i do happen to know the 21 foot rule. Which has been proven wrong, didn't anyone tell you that?

Edited June 3, 2008 by Agias

[ClickClickD'oh 1]

Now that's more like it. I have to agree with the drunk paragraph for most part, but the combination of CS and pepper should at the very least disorient him and mess up his vision for long enough for me to leg it

 

 

See, you just told us again that you have not ever done this for real.

 

It won't do a gods damned thing to him. It won't slow him down. It won't cause him to break stride. It won't prevent him from turning your cranium concave.

 

And i do happen to know the 21 foot rule. Which has been proven wrong, didn't anyone tell you that?

Oh really?

 

I hope you have some support for that since I've seen the 21 foot rule played out dozens of times in training and in the field. Unless by "proving wrong" you mean that someone else says 20 or 23 feet...

Edited June 3, 2008 by ClickClickD'oh

[Agias 0]

You are right, i have never peppered a drunk man, never claimed to have. But i'm assuming that even if they dont really mind the effects all the tears will still blur their vision.

 

Man, don't make me dig up that article and translate it to english. Try and do your research. There must be some mention of it in english. If not i'll look into this for you and sum it up.

Edited June 3, 2008 by Agias

[ClickClickD'oh 1]

You are right, i have never peppered a drunk man, never claimed to have. But i'm assuming that even if they dont really mind the effects all the tears will still blur their vision.

So? They aren't taking an eye exam. They are trying to kill you. A blurry you is just as dead as a 20/20 you.

 

 

Man, don't make me dig up that article and translate it to english. Try and do your research.

Oh no, I need to see this article refuting one of the most basic principles of armed self defense.

[Agias 0]

So? They aren't taking an eye exam. They are trying to kill you. A blurry you is just as dead as a 20/20 you.

That was funny. But blurry me isn't as dead if the guy can't see where i am. Should be easy enough not to get too close to a drunk man, they smell bad. lol

[ClickClickD'oh 1]

That was funny. But blurry me isn't as dead if the guy can't see where i am.

You're the blurry blob he was assaulting before things got blurry.

 

Should be easy enough not to get too close to a drunk man, they smell bad. lol

Again with the psychic powers.

 

Here's a clue for you dipshit, by the time you are close enough to smell that he's drunk, he's close enough to stick a knife in you. He's also close enough that he'll do it before you have time to recognize what is going on and skin that retard OC gun of yours.

[Agias 0]

Sigh, i was joking, einstein. But anyways i generally don't go too close to anyone who doesn't look as innocent as a pink rabbit. And you can tell a drunk guy from the way he walks, from miles away. Especially if he's trying to go towards you with a knife.

[ready2go 0]

maybe you need to read better. Live in a scenario is not live in real life. What part of that don't you get. I know several people on the department that oc/cs doesnt phase and that without any adrenaline rushing through their body. Have you ever had somebody really attacking you and used this stuff on them, not trying it out to see what it would do, but truely your life and your partners life depended on it. did not think so

[ClickClickD'oh 1]

Sigh, i was joking, einstein. But anyways i generally don't go too close to anyone who doesn't look as innocent as a pink rabbit.

So I take it this means you never leave your house? Don't ever go out to eat? No movies? No malls? No driving in traffic? No sporting events?

 

 

And you can tell a drunk guy from the way he walks, from miles away.

God I love it when people who don't know what they are talking about are so absolutely certain of themselves. Never worked a beat a day in your life have you? Don't answer, we know already.

 

 

Especially if he's trying to go towards you with a knife.

You can tell he has a knife on him? Wow, that's cool! X-ray vision perhaps?