Loading your own rubber slugs? Some questions for experts

[Parson Julabee Jones 32]

Hey Folks;

 

I have located, in an indoor flea market, a small source for (hollow) rubber plugs. By way of description, the plugs are identical in appearance to those rubber 'feet' placed upon walking sticks...they are however, sized exactly perfect to lay nicely nestled in the shotcup of a WAA12 wad, in Winchester (and presumably Remington) hulls. By measurement, they are (measurements are fairly close but approximate) 7/8ths of an inch in length, with the largest diameter at .625 inches, and the smallest at .500 inches. The hole (into which the bottom of the walking stick would be placed) is .375 inches in diameter.

 

I use a slightly larger version epoxied over the charging handles of the bolts on two of my Benelli autos, and my Saiga12.

 

So here's my main question. We know that reloaders are strongly admonished to match reloading recipes closely. I'm now loading 1 and 1/8th ounces of lead, over about 28 grains of Green Dot, using WAA12 wads. That lead has been, so far, both #4 birdshot, and #4 buckshot, both using the same recipe (I've also used these loads over about 33 grains of Longshot).

 

There is no way the rubber plug can equal 1 and 1/8th oz. In fact, the rubber plug alone weighs .142 oz. One can however, put enough #4 birdshot into the hole (and tape it shut), to raise the weight to .332 ounces. Two '00' buckshot raises the loaded plug weight to .376 oz, while 3 #4 buckshot balls raise it to .286 oz.

 

Would it be death on wings of Green Dot to shoot a projectile of such small weight using the recipe noted above?

 

If it would be possible, it would allow reloading rubber 'slugs' in 12 ga shells, for non-lethal (or would the additon of the extra lead, in whatever manner, make it substantially more lethal?) and other uses, and at a cost of 50 cents a plug (in small quantities. It would likely be cheaper in greater quantities), the expense would be much less that those rubber plug shells ordered from the online companies.

 

Thanks for your opinions, experience and expertise.

 

PJJ

Edited February 12, 2011 by PJJ

[Azrial 1,091]

This is not your question,, so I kinda hate posting this in response, but if you are loading the "less then lethal" rounds for people, reconsider. It is highly improbable that a non-law enforcement officer will be able to justify using a normal firearm to deliver "less the lethal" force. In most states a shotgun is "lethal force" and no load will change that. All you are doing is making a case for the fact that lethal force was not required, but you used it anyway... You see where this is going?

 

As to the technical reloading part of your question, I have done some reloading, even 12 gauge, but I am no where near expert enough in that area to help you with your project and I sincerely wish you luck with it!

[GeorgiaPD 408]

 

 

 

If it would be possible, it would allow reloading rubber 'slugs' in 12 ga shells, for non-lethal (or would the additon of the extra lead, in whatever manner, make it substantially more lethal?)

 

 

 

I know that this is just a play on words, but the difference between the two words are huge. There is no such thing as NON-LETHAL ammunition, but there is such a thing as LESS THAN LETHAL ammunition. Any projectile fired from a weapon has the ability to be lethal, but some are less prone to cause death if used appropriately. And as Azrial stated below, if you ever shot someone with one of your homemade rubber baton loads, you could be looking at some serious ramifications on the far end.

 

Now, if you are just going to load some up for fun, then start with half of your normal powder charge and go from there. You have the ability to do your own reloading and experimenting with these, so I say have fun. Shoot one, make sure it clears the barrel with no obstructions and keep going up with the powder charge in small increments until you find the load that you are looking to end up with. You might even be able to fill the void in the rubber plugs with hot glue to add a little extra weight. If you do add lead shot to these, then you have just made a very lightweight slug and ventured back over into the lethal category again. Anyway, load some up and have fun with them.

 

 

This is not your question,, so I kinda hate posting this in response, but if you are loading the "less then lethal" rounds for people, reconsider. It is highly improbable that a non-law enforcement officer will be able to justify using a normal firearm to deliver "less the lethal" force. In most states a shotgun is "lethal force" and no load will change that. All you are doing is making a case for the fact that lethal force was not required, but you used it anyway... You see where this is going?

 

[patriot 7,197]

 

 

A word or two of warning:

 

Compression of the payload upon firing will cause the projectile to expand against the walls of the barrel, increasing the resistance said projectile offers to the expansion of the powder gases, thereby increasing the pressure.

 

Remember......Rubber BOUNCES.

 

Discretion would prevent me from trying this load.

 

 

[Parson Julabee Jones 32]

Hey Folks;

 

And thanks for your replies....and my interest in this round would be strictly for 'fun' (as all my defensive shotguns are loaded to the hilt with 00 buck, and that's what I'd use in any situation where deadly force is needed...less lethal force in a home defensive situtaion would simply be siccing my wife on 'em).

 

And I am concerned about the compression thing, although a couple of 00 buck balls sitting in the void and loaded from the rear should at least help with the compression thing, since the lead wouldn't be compressible in normal shotgun accelerations. On the other hand, I do believe there are rubber slugs (or rounds, whatever you call them) available on the market. Best thing I guess would be to buy at least one commercially available rubber round, and reverse engineer it, making alterations as seem appropriate.

 

Again, THANKS! y'all....

 

PJJ

[Parson Julabee Jones 32]

UPDATE....

 

1) In response to Patriot's warning, I carefully checked my loaded shell layout. I found that the rubber plug does not touch or rub the barrel at any time in firing. The wings or petals of the shotwad keep the rubber and barrel separated, as well as, I suppose, providing some lubrication as it makes it way down the barrel.

 

2) I know this because following GeorgiaPD's advice, I worked up three shells. Number one was with 13 grs. of LONGSHOT (in a Remington hull), followed by the shotwad with the plug nestled inside. This resulted in leaving the plug and shotwad in the barrel.

 

Number two was the same set-up, but with 26 grs. of LONGSHOT. Still a very anemic shot, but the wad and rubber plug made it about 40 feet.

 

Number three was again, the same set-up, with 30 grs. of LONGSHOT (in a Winchester hull), but with 1/4 oz of #4 birdshot, which was all the plug would hold. The result was another anemic shot, but with the plug and wad making nearly 25 yards. The plug, at 10 feet would have hurt a body, but would not likely incapacitate a small dog-sized or larger animal.

 

After consideration, I've come to three conclusions that need more investigation. 1) The load will require lots more powder. I'll hold off on this as long as possible, and will probably try Green Dot or SR4756. 2) There must be more weight behind, or in, the plug. At this point, I'm not clear on how one could get more than 1/4 oz into the plug void, but may consider trying to cast a lead cylinder that will totally fill the plug's void, giving probably, about 1/2 ounce. However, this of course, would result in a deadly lead 'sabot' inside a rubber plug, generally negating the advantages of the rubber plug or 3) it'll never work....

 

I crave your advice and ideas, for I know there are rubber slugs out there....by the way, loading these shells requires a loader only in resizing/de-priming and seating the primer. All other actions can be easily done by hand.

 

Thanks!

 

PJJ

Edited February 13, 2011 by PJJ

[IndyArms 10,186]

why bother packing LEAD into RUBBER?!?!?! Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of rubber?? If you want rubber... use rubber. If you want lead... use lead!

 

I guess I am just not following the whole "pack it with lead" logic when you are looking for RUBBER slugs...

 

 

[GeorgiaPD 408]

why bother packing LEAD into RUBBER?!?!?!

 

Because the one time that I didn't, I ended up with a kid

[Parson Julabee Jones 32]

"I guess I am just not following the whole "pack it with lead" logic when you are looking for RUBBER slugs..."

 

Don't worry. I'd say your 'following' faculty is just fine. Because in point of fact, there IS no logic in using lead when looking for rubber.

 

However, and this brings up another question for the folks in the know....

 

Being a lifelong simpleton, I figured that pressure in a shotshell was the result of powder, encased in a closed vessel, and the amount of weight the powder must propel forward. I assumed (probably incorrectly) that the greater the weight of the load being propelled, the greater the pressure developed in the shell, which should (again, I assumed) increase velocity, energy and so forth.

 

Having that thought, I've been hesitant to increase powder charges to the extent it seems will be necessary to propel the rubber slug at adequate speeds for any useful endeavor.

 

And that of course, brings me to the question....what's the drill in shooting very light objects, upon the top of very (relatively) large charges of powder?

 

Thanks!

[Azrial 1,091]

You used to be able to buy rubber slugs and buck shot as well from the Cart-A-Buck company. I have not seen their ads in years. I think it was supposed to be used to train dogs.

[turbo1889 1]

I load less than lethal 12ga. loads all the time using a variety of different payloads. (Small farm animals that dogs just love to chase bother and kill and lots of neighbors who let their dogs run loose even though in my state it is a criminal offense to let your dog run loose off your own property and we have the legal right to shoot with fully lethal loads if they come after our stock. I just try to be nice and start with less than lethal and only work up to lethal if necessary.)

 

As far as powder charge goes: What I have found works the best is a light charge of very fast burning powder ignited by a very hot primer. Specifically, 10 to 15 grains of "Bullseye" powder ignited by (in order of preference) the Fed-209A primer, CCI-209M primer, or one of the Euro import magnum hot primers. Start at 10 grains and work up until you get just enough velocity to do the damage you want at your intended range and no more. I use scraps of foam insulation sheeting for testing.

 

As far as what to use as the actual projectile(s): I have tried lots of stuff but have settled on two things that seem to work the best for my needs. Those little multi-colored hard plastic balls they sell in the big jugs at Wal-Mart that those toy air-soft guns shoot and I mail order big bags of 68-caliber black rubber balls that are intended for live fire training using paintball guns and are mainly sold to the law enforcement community but you can buy them without any special licenses or stuff since they are just inert rubber balls. Do a Google search and you should find them, got a link saved in my favorites where I buy them but it is on the other computer. That gives my shot loads, ball slug loads, and multi slug ball loads since the big balls fit perfectly inside a shot wad and if I use a cut down wad and a paper sleeve I can get two or three of them in the load depending on shell length stacked on top of each other.

 

I’ve got loads all the way from soft shot loads that will just make them flinch at close range to multi-slug (rubber) balls that if you hit them in the upper hind quarter at fifty yards on a broad size shot it will knock them clean off their feet and spin them all the way around all at the same time and send them yelping and running like heck once they get back up. I use the load the situation calls for and if they still don’t learn then it’s the real thing and a call to the sheriff and turn the carcass over to them and have them bill the owner for the damage to my stock and the price of the bullet used to put their dog down plus my minimum half hour labor charge (all based off of hard quotes from local vets for what it would cost to put a problem dog down namely minimum half hour labor charge plus expenses. The cost of my labor being dually proven by the hourly wage on my pay check stub and my expenses being the cost of the shell dually proven by the price tag on the side of the box divided by the number of shells in a box).

Edited February 15, 2011 by turbo1889

[Parson Julabee Jones 32]

In the country wisdom of older time, my Dad always said to shoot your gun often, daily if possible. That way, your neighbors will be totally accustomed to hearing your guns, and won't raise an eyebrow whenever they hear shooting. The advantage to that is if you need to shoot your neighbor's dog for casting a lustful eye upon your chicken house, you can do so with peace of mind, and simply drag the carcase to the back side of the place, to return to the place nature intended.

 

So anyhow, I have BULLSEYE on my shopping list, and will continue with my experiments.

 

Thanks for the info!

 

PJJ