Russian CFI 0 Posted November 3, 2013 Report Share Posted November 3, 2013 (edited) Hello all, I'm having some difficulty getting my Chaos Titan Rail to line up and sight in on my Saiga 12. I performed a CSS conversion and added the rail for function and some cosmetic appeal. However, the rail mounts crooked on the firearm and there seems to be no way to adjust it so the gun can be sighted in (I am aware that the rear HK sight can move, but I want that for fine adjustment only). Reference the attached pic to see what is going on: Also, to get the elevation correct, I am finding that have to take quite a bit of material off of the tang on the back of the rail extension. When I am done it appears there will only be about 3mm worth of metal left. Am I doing something wrong? (EDIT: there will be no metal left. The rear tang will have no function to hold down the extended portion of the rail. This is bad.) Thanks for the help! Edit: Here are some additional pic to help out. See how high the extended portion of the rail is? This is level with the front rail. Edited November 3, 2013 by Russian CFI Quote Link to post Share on other sites
schultze13 354 Posted November 3, 2013 Report Share Posted November 3, 2013 It the last pic do you see those set screws back them all off to get the sight level then once the sight is level tighten them back up. That is what it looks like to me I have never messed with a titan rail but that looks like what your problem is. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Russian CFI 0 Posted November 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2013 (edited) The set screws are set with the rail level in the picture. If I back them down the extended portion rail will not be level with the front portion. It will be lower. Honestly, I am not sure what is right a this point. The front is canted and the back is hiked up too high and it looks silly. Did I miss an adjustment somewhere? Edited November 3, 2013 by Russian CFI Quote Link to post Share on other sites
schultze13 354 Posted November 3, 2013 Report Share Posted November 3, 2013 (edited) Did you buy it used or new and if new from chaos or a vendor. eitherway contact cam I am sure he will help you out. I don't know howthe front goes together maybe you put a space in the wrong place or maybe one was not included with yours by misstake I am unsure. Sorry I could not help more. Just looked at the directions in a PDF on chaos's site and the only reason I could think of the rail not to sit level is is the front quad rail hitting on your factory rear sightand keeping it from sitting level if so remove the factory sight. Edited November 3, 2013 by SCHULTZE Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Russian CFI 0 Posted November 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2013 Did you buy it used or new and if new from chaos or a vendor. eitherway contact cam I am sure he will help you out. I don't know howthe front goes together maybe you put a space in the wrong place or maybe one was not included with yours by misstake I am unsure. Sorry I could not help more. Just looked at the directions in a PDF on chaos's site and the only reason I could think of the rail not to sit level is is the front quad rail hitting on your factory rear sightand keeping it from sitting level if so remove the factory sight. I bought the rail from CSS new. The front rail has only one position with no adjustments. There is a key on the aft lower part of the rail that sticks into the front of the lower receiver. It only came with one size key. The front of the rail bolts to the bottom of the gas block where it wraps around the barrel. No adjustments there either. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Russian CFI 0 Posted November 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2013 Any input from Chaos? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cvhanh20 1,052 Posted November 6, 2013 Report Share Posted November 6, 2013 Check and make sure your front rail is sitting parallel to the barrel, I have a feeling your going to find the front of your rail pointing downward. Check that first and report what you find back. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Russian CFI 0 Posted November 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2013 (edited) The rail is not parallel to the barrel and is sitting high on the rear. It is not resting on anything. It seems the "key" that attaches to the receiver "gap" under the barrel is what is holding the rail in the elevated position. Is there any way to adujst it down?Also, is there any way to adjust the front sight problem near the gas block so I can sight this gun in? Edited November 8, 2013 by Russian CFI Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nsnate02 32 Posted November 8, 2013 Report Share Posted November 8, 2013 I've installed a few of those and never had one sit that high. Most of them sight nearly directly on the top cover. Did you remove the rear sight? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Russian CFI 0 Posted November 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2013 Yes rear sight has been ground off smooth. The rear portion of the rail is not resting on anything. There is a nice gap. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Russian CFI 0 Posted November 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2013 What am I supposed to do now? Am I stuck with a crooked rail? The gun was permanently modified to accept this rail. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cvhanh20 1,052 Posted November 11, 2013 Report Share Posted November 11, 2013 Some Saigas have had this problem, the best way to correct this is to remove material at either the mounting area on the bottom of the gas block or rail. When they are like this it seems to take around .08 to line it out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Russian CFI 0 Posted November 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2013 Some Saigas have had this problem, the best way to correct this is to remove material at either the mounting area on the bottom of the gas block or rail. When they are like this it seems to take around .08 to line it out. Well, that's not good because I already had the barrel and receiver cerakoted. Looks like I am out 300 bucks for the rail/sights or another 100 for a cerakote job to put another rail on (but have no sights as I already permanently removed them). Also, I am now deployed overseas so I can't do anything about it for a few months. The gun is straight and certainly not a vodka special. Is there nothing I can do to adjust this rail? Look at the pics from the front as we haven't even touched on that yet. Not only is it high in the back but it is crooked to the left. This is frustrating, for sure. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cvhanh20 1,052 Posted November 14, 2013 Report Share Posted November 14, 2013 Sorry to hear that but the gun is the issue! High in the back is because the rail is sitting low in the front, to much metal left on the gas block area. Cocked to the left is because your gas block is canted to the right, or poorly machined surface on the gas block mounting area. We can't control what Saiga does when manufacturing these weapons, we hold tolerances +-.003 to +-.005 saiga does not! There are thousands of Chaos rails out there and mounted. I understand your frustration but you should always fit things up before final finish, lesson learned. Unfortunately when dealing with these weapons you can run into this kind of an issue, that's why it's called customizing. If you want this rail on your weapon iron out the issues with your saiga and you'll be happy you did, we wish you a safe jounery during your deployment. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Russian CFI 0 Posted November 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 Sorry to hear that but the gun is the issue! High in the back is because the rail is sitting low in the front, to much metal left on the gas block area. Cocked to the left is because your gas block is canted to the right, or poorly machined surface on the gas block mounting area. We can't control what Saiga does when manufacturing these weapons, we hold tolerances +-.003 to +-.005 saiga does not! There are thousands of Chaos rails out there and mounted. I understand your frustration but you should always fit things up before final finish, lesson learned. Unfortunately when dealing with these weapons you can run into this kind of an issue, that's why it's called customizing. If you want this rail on your weapon iron out the issues with your saiga and you'll be happy you did, we wish you a safe jounery during your deployment. Cameron, If the firearm has known issues that would require professional (gunsmith) installation of your product to ensure compatibility then that should have been indicated on paperwork that comes with the product (there was none) or should be indicated on the resellers website (I purchased from CSS who only suggested there would be “fitting” required). The only reason I undertook such a project was because the guidance I received from all the manufacturers and the reseller (official videos, website docs) never once indicated that I would be dealing with any of these problems. I agree with you, it is called customizing. Customizing, not gunsmithing. I am not a gunsmith and I do not possess the tools or skills to make the modifications you are suggesting. Nor am I able to recognize if a gun is crooked or has imperfections that do not reveal themselves during the normal operation of the firearm. Please do not assume that all of us Saiga customizers possess professional level abilities as it is not fair to your enthusiast customers. Hopefully this feedback is taken seriously as I am trying to be respectful while still indicating that there is a problem that the customer needs fixed. Now… My intention here and now is to get past this issue. You make a fine product, and I want my Saiga project to be completed with the Titan Rail and HK sights. I have spent a great deal of money AND my time to make this gun exceptional, which means a lot to me. How do I get this fixed? (you say iron out, but I don't know how) Do I send the gun to you? Do you recommend a gunsmith who specializes in this type of modification who can right this? I am willing to do whatever it takes to make my investment in this gun sound without having to buy another Saiga. Respectfully, Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cvhanh20 1,052 Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Sorry to hear that but the gun is the issue! High in the back is because the rail is sitting low in the front, to much metal left on the gas block area. Cocked to the left is because your gas block is canted to the right, or poorly machined surface on the gas block mounting area. We can't control what Saiga does when manufacturing these weapons, we hold tolerances +-.003 to +-.005 saiga does not! There are thousands of Chaos rails out there and mounted. I understand your frustration but you should always fit things up before final finish, lesson learned. Unfortunately when dealing with these weapons you can run into this kind of an issue, that's why it's called customizing. If you want this rail on your weapon iron out the issues with your saiga and you'll be happy you did, we wish you a safe jounery during your deployment. Cameron, If the firearm has known issues that would require professional (gunsmith) installation of your product to ensure compatibility then that should have been indicated on paperwork that comes with the product (there was none) or should be indicated on the resellers website (I purchased from CSS who only suggested there would be “fitting” required). The only reason I undertook such a project was because the guidance I received from all the manufacturers and the reseller (official videos, website docs) never once indicated that I would be dealing with any of these problems. I agree with you, it is called customizing. Customizing, not gunsmithing. I am not a gunsmith and I do not possess the tools or skills to make the modifications you are suggesting. Nor am I able to recognize if a gun is crooked or has imperfections that do not reveal themselves during the normal operation of the firearm. Please do not assume that all of us Saiga customizers possess professional level abilities as it is not fair to your enthusiast customers. Hopefully this feedback is taken seriously as I am trying to be respectful while still indicating that there is a problem that the customer needs fixed. Now… My intention here and now is to get past this issue. You make a fine product, and I want my Saiga project to be completed with the Titan Rail and HK sights. I have spent a great deal of money AND my time to make this gun exceptional, which means a lot to me. How do I get this fixed? (you say iron out, but I don't know how) Do I send the gun to you? Do you recommend a gunsmith who specializes in this type of modification who can right this? I am willing to do whatever it takes to make my investment in this gun sound without having to buy another Saiga. Respectfully, If all of the vendors starting writing the possible fails with this weapon we would have to write a book, which is kinda what this site is. Saigas are known to be rough out of the box. Our responsibility as a manufacturer is to provide consistent quality parts to our customers that cover the broadest range of that product line which we do and do it very well, it's the customers responsibility to research the quality of the product they're purchasing. With that said, to answer your question, yes. There are a couple really good vendors here that do those services very well, Lone Star Arms, Tac 47, CGW. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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