First Post (noob alert): a few questions

[CMOS 0]

Hello All,

 

Yep, I'm a virgin. Gettin my S12 tomorrow, and only tomorrow because my FFL doesn't want to do the xfer on Thanksgiving Day. What's up with that!?

 

A little about me: I'm an AR15/M4 junkie and have been building them fro years. Think I have about 4 of them now. Shotguns in the house include a Benelli M1S90 and a Remington 870 Marine Magnum with some mods done to it (Speedfeed stock, Scattergun Tech ghost ring sights, forcing cone work).

 

I don't have any AK's even though my friend has been relentlessly hounding me for years to get at least one. They just don't do too much for me. However, about 2 weeks ago he starts to tell me about the Saiga S12 and I'm not terribly impressed until I hear the words "detatchable magazine". Hmm, 12 Ga semi-auto goodness like my Benelli but with a fast mag change reload capability!? Sign me up.

 

I don't kmnow much about these yet but I do have a general idea of what I want to do to it, so here's what I'm thinking:

 

1) Standard AK style stock with PG, of course

2) vented front HG's

3) ghost ring style sights

4) internal choke tubes (Rem chokes?)

 

 

What I need to learn more about, and please let me know your opinions, is barrel lengths, and effectiveness of internally threaded chokes vs the standard Saiga tubes. I pretty much want this to be a CQB shottie so I will not be hunting with it (unless I HAVE to hunt those pesky 2 leggers...). I will shoot mostly 00, 000 buck and possibly some large shot like a 2 or a 4 occasionally.

 

Right now I'm on a list at Atlantic to get some of the 10-round magazines. Will have to wait. Anyone else have these available?

 

For now, I need to save some cash so I can have the mods done, and choose who I want to do so (suggestions?) Oh, and as far as cash, goes, if these things are anything like AR15 Black Rifle Disease, you know, I MAY want to get another......

 

Happy Thanksgiving to all.

 

 

CMOS

[kresk 10,063]

Just to whet your appetite a bit further, check out www.Tromix.com to see an example of many variations of the S-12 available. Tony Rumore is perhaps the best known for his conversions. Top reputation and skills.

 

And, welcome.

Edited November 23, 2006 by tritium

[CMOS 0]

Just to whet your appetite a bit further, check out www.Tromix.com to see an example of many variations of the S-12 available. Tony Rumore is perhaps the best known for his conversions. Top reputation and skills.

 

And, welcome.

 

 

Trit,

 

Thank you. I 've laready been to Tromix. Much goodness there. That's where I got some of my ideas.

 

Looking forward to building this beast.

 

CMOS

[AegisDei 2]

What I need to learn more about, and please let me know your opinions, is barrel lengths, and effectiveness of internally threaded chokes vs the standard Saiga tubes. I pretty much want this to be a CQB shottie so I will not be hunting with it (unless I HAVE to hunt those pesky 2 leggers...). I will shoot mostly 00, 000 buck and possibly some large shot like a 2 or a 4 occasionally.

If you're really running only the bigger loads, then get as short a barrel as possible. If you can go SBS, do it: makes for a better CQB and a sexier gun. You shouldn't have too many problems with cycling unless you try the light stuff. If you do get into issues you should be able to fix them by opening up the gas ports. Check with Tony Rumore (tromix) to be sure, but I believe as short as ~14" can cycle heavy loads with just enlarging the ports. If you go much shorter you may have to rebuild the gas system.

 

The Saiga choke tubes are fine, but they're harder to find and more expensive than Rem-chokes had at walmart for $5-10 a tube. Also, once you hack your barrel you'd have to get it re-threaded for them, so you mght as well go for internal threads. Be sure to use a good gunsmith though. The chrome-lined bore is tougher to thread, and since the barrel is not removeable, most standard threading rigs don't work with the Saiga.

 

Hope this helps, goodluck with the new gun!

[CMOS 0]

If you're really running only the bigger loads, then get as short a barrel as possible. If you can go SBS, do it: makes for a better CQB and a sexier gun. You shouldn't have too many problems with cycling unless you try the light stuff. If you do get into issues you should be able to fix them by opening up the gas ports. Check with Tony Rumore (tromix) to be sure, but I believe as short as ~14" can cycle heavy loads with just enlarging the ports. If you go much shorter you may have to rebuild the gas system.

 

The Saiga choke tubes are fine, but they're harder to find and more expensive than Rem-chokes had at walmart for $5-10 a tube. Also, once you hack your barrel you'd have to get it re-threaded for them, so you mght as well go for internal threads. Be sure to use a good gunsmith though. The chrome-lined bore is tougher to thread, and since the barrel is not removeable, most standard threading rigs don't work with the Saiga.

 

Hope this helps, goodluck with the new gun!

 

 

 

Aegis,

 

Thanks.

 

I want to understand better the relationship between barrel length and shot group diameter placement. Does a shorter barrel = wider shot groups (in general)? I want a tight as possible group of the buck pellets. Thoughts on this?

 

You know, a good friend of mine who is a weapons trainer for the Texas DPS Narcotics division once told me, "At close ranges (</= 25 yards) nothing but a tactical Nuke can match the firepower of a well handled 12 gauge shotgun."

 

Think I'm gonna frame that phrase and hang it on my wall.

 

 

CMOS

Edited November 24, 2006 by CMOS

[AegisDei 2]

I want to understand better the relationship between barrel length and shot group diameter placement. Does a shorter barrel = wider shot groups (in general)? I want a tight as possible group of the buck pellets. Thoughts on this?

Generally, barrel length will not greatly change your pattern. What matters is the restriction through which you shoot. If you you shoot a 12" barrel that's muzzle is exactly even with a 30" barrel, the patterns will be virtually identical. You may see slightly more spread from the 12," but not much. If you shot the 30" the same position as you shot the 12", you'd notice a slightly more dispersed pattern because it had an extra 18" in which it could spread. But don't believe the common misconception that a sawed-off magically opens a pattern. It doesn't. It's just more concealable, more maneuverable, and will open it a little bit.

 

I would be curious why you want a tight pattern. If you shoot 00-buck from a X-full choke, anywhere within 25yrds you may have about a 6" pattern. It would be almost like shooting a rifle. You'll have to get your shots on target, or you'll miss. The advantage of an open choke is that you don't have to be as on target. At 25yrds with cylinder bore your spread may be 24" or more. You don't have to be nearly as accurate. Those 00pellets are basically a .380, so even one of them will do damage.

 

For a defense gun, I'd want a short barrel so it's maneuverable (clearing doorways, shooting off-hand, shooting from behind cover, etc.) and a very dispersed pattern so I don't have to be accurate. I can pepper a room while staying behind a corner. With a restricted choke tube, you'd have to be aiming carefully instead of just blasting. There's some good things to be said for aiming, don't get me wrong, but I'd opt for a carbine with subsonic ammo if I were having to aim.

 

You know, a good friend of mine who is a weapons trainer for the Texas DPS Narcotics division once told me, "At close ranges (</= 25 yards) nothing but a tactical Nuke can match the firepower of a well handled 12 gauge shotgun."

Hrmm...I don't trust myself with tactical nukes. The ammo is expensive, follow-up shots are non-existent, and I hear fall-outs a bitch. Carbines or shotguns are definitely the way to go.

 

Depends on how many targets there are, how much time you have to get a shot on target, what kind of armor you might be faced with, and what the environment is. I'd rather have my shotgun for home-defense, but I'd choose my AR for anything else. The shotgun I don't have to worry as much about over-penetration and I don't have to be accurate. But it's lower capacity and doesn't fair well against armor.

[Pointer 21]

Welcome! Im also into Ar's.You will find out the Saigas are much the same,a disease! You can go from mild to wild much like the Ar.Got any funds left over from the Ar addiction,your gonna need um Im not much for the chokes if its just for defence under 25 yds,cut the sucker to 18 1/2",mine patterns good at 25yds with 00Buck.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Just to add a couple of cents for whatever it's worth...I was out with my 22" bbl factory full choke S-12 last week and did some 00 blasting. I was surprised that the pattern was around 12 to 18 inches from 25yds, thought it should have been tighter with the full choke at that short a distance. Stepped up 5 yds and there was a world of difference.

 

Welcome to the forum...and the addiction.

[CMOS 0]

Just piced up my S12. This has a 19" barrel with the factory thread protector.

 

Aegis, I'll tell you whay I like a tight pattern - maximum force projection into target. I do not like, nor do most weapons trainers I know, a wide pattern for a shogtun. A wide pattern could deliver one or two pellets into a target, essentially about the same as a .38 revolver as far as delivered energy. Use a tight pattern and you could get 6-9 projectiles into target = boo-coo energy. I've always trained on the thought that a shotgun is no substitute for marksmanship. I don't want to rely on a wide pattern to properly engage a target. Anywho, that's my philosophy.

 

CMOS

[AegisDei 2]

Just piced up my S12. This has a 19" barrel with the factory thread protector.

 

Aegis, I'll tell you whay I like a tight pattern - maximum force projection into target. I do not like, nor do most weapons trainers I know, a wide pattern for a shogtun. A wide pattern could deliver one or two pellets into a target, essentially about the same as a .38 revolver as far as delivered energy. Use a tight pattern and you could get 6-9 projectiles into target = boo-coo energy. I've always trained on the thought that a shotgun is no substitute for marksmanship. I don't want to rely on a wide pattern to properly engage a target. Anywho, that's my philosophy.

 

CMOS

I'll agree that 9-pellets in a target will do a ton of damage. That'll pretty much sever a limb or disintegrate a head. I see the point, but if I'm going to be a marksman I'd rather have a carbine. With a shotgun, you have 9-pellets to worry about where they end up (though with only moderate penetration), but any one of those pellets could hurt/kill innocent bi-standers. Additionally, the kick of a 12ga, while manageable, is enough that a follow-up shot will not be rapid and accurate: it'll be one or the other.

 

A 9mm/.40S&W/.45ACP/.223 carbine (CX-4, AR, etc) with a well-placed fragmenting or HP round will do equally lethal damage. It's only 1 round per shot that you have to worry about hitting bi-standards. Its penetration will be comparable (assuming your ammo is adequate: subsonic and high-enough quality that it fragments or expands in drywall). And recoil is minimal allowing for a very fast and accurate follow-up if needed.

 

Aiming is great and I'll do it whenever I get the chance, but it's not what a shotgun was designed to do. A shotgun is pointed, a rifle is aimed. And I'm not trying to be a dick, it's just a matter of preference.

 

I'm also a baby. I'd rather hide behind a corner than try to get a well-placed shot. All I'm doing is laying down suppressive fire until they leave, the cops come, or one of us is dead.

 

Also, welcome to the forum! You'll LOVE the Saiga!!! Just be wary, it's like Lays: You can't get just one.

Edited November 24, 2006 by AegisDei

[CMOS 0]

I see your point Aegis - and I still don't think you're a dick. ;-) Just a matter fo how someone trains.

 

Does anone have the 10-round mags available?

 

What about availablity of choke tubes or FH's?

 

Thanks,

CMOS

[GTwannabe 1]

Open-choke with buckshot will put most of the pellets into a torso-sized target at 25 yards. That should be more than adequate for home defense.