Legality and staying within ATF Specs

[FAL Man 0]

Hello. I'm new to the site and have had my unmodded Saiga .223 since December of last year. It was an impulse buy, since I wasn't planning on buying a .223 carbine until '07. But it looked so nice and the money was burning a whole in my pocket, so I bought it. I figured that I would have it modified a bit later on, and later on has snuck up on me.

 

My original plan was to send this gun off to Tromix to have it converted to use Galil magazines. It seems like an even better idea now that I see that Century will be importing Galils into the country soon. Along with that conversion, I plan on Tony to place a type of bayonet lug onto my rifle (I feel every rifle should be given the chance to have a sharpened hunk of steel at the end of its barrel) as well. However, I am planning on buying a folding stock from either Saiga-12's store or Black Jack Buffers. Both can be fitted to an unmodified Saiga. However, if I do this, will I be alright as far as compliance parts go? Or would I have to have a complete US conversion folding stock put on the rifle?

 

Here's a link to the BJB folding stock.

 

http://www.blackjackbuffers.com/index.php?...271f755e24cc81e

Edited February 22, 2007 by FAL Man

[csspecs 1,987]

I would be cheaper and better to have tromix put a folding stock on it while you are having the magazine conversion done. And with the cost of that stock I can see it getting close to the price of a full conversion.

[Bvamp 604]

you need to change more parts out of the gun to use those features of the rifle, as it was originally intended. you will have to swap out trigger parts for US made parts and the like, etc etc etc.

 

if you are planning to do work on it with tony rumore, maybe you can email or call him when he is finished moving his shop this week and see what he can do for you and get it over with.

 

welcome to our nasty little world.....

 

...they make them in 12 gauge too, you know......

[FAL Man 0]

I've contacted Tony via email and gotten a quote for everything I'd want done to the rifle. It's $385 with a bayonet attachment, folding stock w/ pistol grip, and galil conversion. I figure that since it's only $140 for the bayonet attachment and I can buy a folding stock from Saiga-12.com for 160, it'd be cheaper going this route.

 

you need to change more parts out of the gun to use those features of the rifle, as it was originally intended. you will have to swap out trigger parts for US made parts and the like, etc etc etc.

 

So it would be unlawful to the BATF to have a russian folding stock on it, like the one sold on this site, without putting US-made parts into the rifle?

 

And yes, I was debating between buying the Saiga 12 or the .223. In the end, I voted for the .223, saving my 12 gauge need for a double-barreled 870 project this summer.

[Bad Bob 0]

So it would be unlawful to the BATF to have a russian folding stock on it, like the one sold on this site, without putting US-made parts into the rifle?

 

I am not a lawyer, so please consider anything I post in that light. In my humble opinion, anytime you do ANYTHING to an imported self-loading rifle (including changing to a non-factory magazine), you would be wise to make sure that you have fewer than 10 (please correct me if I'm wrong???) 'imported' parts, as listed on the BATF 922 hit list. In fact, I make sure I have AT LEAST one more 'compliance' part on every rifle I WECSOG than BATF requires, because I really like 'insurance' (I think my FAL has 2 or 3 extra 'compliance' parts, some of which I added to save weight).

 

'Insurance' is definitely good. You do NOT need 'federal-law-enforcement-headaches' (no 'off-the-shelf' pharmaceutical pain-reliever will help you). I am a scientist who works with federal law enforcement on very rare occasions - please trust me on this...

 

(What's an hour of your time worth? Do an estimate of how many hours you might spend defending yourself in court against some accidental federal firearms charge. Add it up - it ain't a pretty picture. Insurance - extra 'compliance' parts - are, in my opinion, a VERY good investment. You may never, ever, run into an LEO who is 'interested' in your Saiga. On the other hnd, there's "Murphy's Law." "Murphy's Law" trumps everything. And as one LEO once told me, LEOs are not paid to educate you - they get paid to enforce the law, as they understand it. Do your best to NOT EVER get crosswise with any LEO. Just my opinion, FWIW... )

 

PLEASE do not let this post discourage you from converting a Saiga to 'homeland defense' configuration. It's really a cookbook operation:

 

http://www.cross-conn.com/Saiga_Conversion/

 

Plus, it's completely legal in most parts of the US of A. Just research your local or State laws first, and maybe add an extra US-made part on to your finished project, if you're wanting extra insurance...

Edited February 23, 2007 by Bad Bob

[FAL Man 0]

I understand fully that I want no beef between me and the law, seeing as how they usually win playground shove-matches.

 

Alright, if I were not going to get the Saiga folding buttstock from here, there's always the fully American buttstock offered here http://www.blackjackbuffers.com/index.php?...271f755e24cc81e

 

How many compliance parts would this give me? If I used this, a bayonet piece, and had the galil mag conversion done on it, would I still be looking at not having enough US made parts?

 

Excuse my ignorance. I've never had to deal with the compliance law before, and I'm trying to keep costs down. If anything, I'll forget about the folding stock and just have Tony do a bayonet and mag conversion on it.

[Bad Bob 0]

I understand fully that I want no beef between me and the law, seeing as how they usually win playground shove-matches.

 

Alright, if I were not going to get the Saiga folding buttstock from here, there's always the fully American buttstock offered here http://www.blackjackbuffers.com/index.php?...271f755e24cc81e

 

How many compliance parts would this give me? If I used this, a bayonet piece, and had the galil mag conversion done on it, would I still be looking at not having enough US made parts?

 

Excuse my ignorance. I've never had to deal with the compliance law before, and I'm trying to keep costs down. If anything, I'll forget about the folding stock and just have Tony do a bayonet and mag conversion on it.

My first recommendation would be to spend a little time bouncing a few ideas off Tony - he obviously knows his business.

 

As far as my opinion goes, if that's an American made butt stock & pistol grip, I believe that would give you TWO compliance parts. If I remember correctly, FIVE are required for a Saiga with a non-threaded muzzle, which would mean that you would need THREE MORE.

 

Obvious candidates are an American-made handgurad (either the Saiga-style US part from TAPCO, or any military-style US-made handguard set, combined with dinzag's Saiga handguard retainer & a military gas tube w/ upper handguard retainers).

 

I think you can swap out the Saiga hammer for a US-made unit, although I've never done it without converting the rifle (any expererienced input would be welcomed) - that would give you (with the handguard) FOUR.

 

For part number FIVE you might consider a US-made gas piston (link #8 at http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=14852 ), although I hear they are a pain in the butt to install (not a problem if you're working with Tony ;>).

 

For another option for number FIVE (or possibly parts FOUR AND FIVE, instead of the hammer), I would see if there were any options in terms of magazine parts. If you are considering using high-capacity magazines without a bullet guide, modified Weigers are available (about $50 each from what I hear), but I have no idea what the magazine follower or floor plate look like, or whether the modified German mag body is considered a US-made part - but you might be able to find a US-made floorplate or follower that would fit the modified Weigers (anybody have any ideas here?).

 

Another option would be (as you mentioned) to install a bullet guide so you could use Galil mags (see dinzag, or make your own, as per vjor's instructions: link #1 at http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=14852 ). I think this might also allow you to use Promag hi-cap mags (THREE US-made parts - but I think the jury is still out on reliability & durability), OR Galil Orlites, with home-made - that's US-made - followers & floorplates (links #6 & #7 at http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=14852 ). I know you can make your own floorplates for the steel Galil mags as well (I've done it myself), but I have not looked at the followers in a while, so I can't offer advice there (regarding US-made replacements) without pulling some mags apart.

 

In other words, I think you can do it, but you might want to get some more input before you start the project.

 

Any help here, guys?

[FAL Man 0]

I believe I'm going to have Tony do a Galil magazine conversion and fit a bayonet onto the rifle. However, if this is all I will have done to the rifle, would I need to still follow the compliance parts law?

[Bad Bob 0]

I believe I'm going to have Tony do a Galil magazine conversion and fit a bayonet onto the rifle. However, if this is all I will have done to the rifle, would I need to still follow the compliance parts law?

It is my understanding that, Yes, you would have to follow the compliance parts law. Please check with Tony.