VIDEO!!! Saiga-12 Magwell, Bolt Release, LRBHO, Extended M

[kmoore 3]

Thanks K!!!! I was waiting for you to see it. Are you warming up to the bolt release any? I don't do comp shooting but why do most people not use lrbho's? Is it because they are in a bad place to drop the bolt? It is still easy to insert the saiga-12 mag on a closed bolt but it is a hell of a lot easier to insert on an open bolt even with the magwell. I have the release located in a great place as well. My feelings won't be hurt if comp guys don't want to use the bolt release. I'm just trying to better understand what you guys don't like about the bolt locking back. I do understand that it takes away a motion on some guns not to empty the chamber. But I think that the extra time and force to put the saiga mag in on a closed bolt will be more troublesome, time consuming, and prone to failure than using the release to drop the bolt. Looking forward to your comp shooting experience advice.

 

Mike, Well, you sure catch on quick as your video demo would work well in the competition arena.

 

I consider the magwell to be must have equipment, and the combination between LRBHO and release to be good insurance.

 

Here's the deal with competitions.

 

For pistol you never let your gun run dry (IDPA forces you to, but anywhere else it's a bad thing) There's an extra motion of dropping the slide (and sometimes regrip the gun) and in a sport that is one and lost by less than a second that's too much. You want to see a fast pistol reload, look here....

Notice the magwell, and the slide is kept forward.

 

For the rifle it's pretty much the same. Arrendondo makes a magwell for the AR, and it's faster not to have to drop the bolt. It's not as critical but it's still important. BTW, it's more than the time lost releasing the bolt, there's also the time to registering that the bolt is locked back. Even if that is .5 seconds ... it's time that you are giving to your competitors.

 

For the shotgun we are in new ground. Historically, most folks run speedloaders (open class) or load belly feeders. Saiga is right on the verge of breaking into the game tho. Because we are in new ground, I'd have to say what follows is my opinion only.

 

There are always competing factors when pushing the envelope. One HUGE factor is avoiding catastrophy. (i.e. fumbled reloads) ... and this is why holding the bolt open has become so popular. It makes the reload very reliable. Another disaster to avoid if you can is setting up your mags to go empty when you want, because if you miss a target your whole plan is crap.

 

If you can master it, there's no faster reload than dropping a mag whenever you need (but before empty) and inserting it's replacement. Problem is most can't load that mag in trouble free and/or quickly.

 

Mix with this the concept is you want to avoid all of the "flat footed" reloads that you can. Most stages have several arrays of targets with movement between. So a good reload needs to be doable on the move. check out this guys practice. It looks like a typical match challenge.

 

 

Notice how long the botched reload towards the end took. This guy would be on fire if he could finish his reload before he got to next shooting position (needs mags closer by, and a smoother technique).

 

Mike, your first mag load was on a closed bolt and very good! That's should be everyones optimal reload. It's faster and can be done at any point (not just when the gun is shot dry).

 

Does this make any sense? Let me try another way. If you took a timer and ran that same series ... shoot 9, reload, shoot 11 instead of shoot 10 reload shoot 10 you should see that it's a little faster. Also, imagine you have 2 arrays of 8 targets seperated by 7 yards. You'd definitely want to shoot 8, reload on the move, shoot 8.

 

However, not everything goes according to plan. Buzzer goes off, so does the brain!!! So, the LRBHO + bolt release would minimize the mistake of loosing count and running the gun dry. If a competition ever copied IDPA and forced you to shoot your gun dry, this combination would be a lifesaver ... but this is highly unlikely. IDPA is forming it's 3gun rules right now and is not allowing any mag fed shotguns.

[MikeD 541]

Mike- For competition both the magwell and the LRBHO would be a great addition. The reloads looked great on the video. I'd prefer to reload when needed and not wait around for a click. If I miss count in the middle of a stage, having the bolt lock open would be a big help. Please keep us posted. I'm in for both.

I have never done any comp shooting but I don't think I would like the idea of counting rounds. It just seems to me that that would or could be distracting. With the lrbho you can just feel when the gun is empty. You know what I mean? You feel the bolt lock and don't feel the motion of the bolt closing.

 

As far as the lrbho and extended mag release, you can get that now from Jeric.

[MikeD 541]

Mike, Well, you sure catch on quick as your video demo would work well in the competition arena.

 

I consider the magwell to be must have equipment, and the combination between LRBHO and release to be good insurance.

 

Here's the deal with competitions...... (minus a lot of good info)

 

... but this is highly unlikely. IDPA is forming it's 3gun rules right now and is not allowing any mag fed shotguns.

Yes, I do see what your saying. I just didn't have any experience with it but see very clearly now exactly what you are saying. The magwell will stop a lot of fumbles reloading for sure even on a closed bolt. You still have the resistance of the bolt but it is straight on and I'm sure under an adrenaline rush like that you will not fail to push hard enough. Don't get me wrong it doesn't take a lot of force or anything. Just picture loading on a closed bolt like you do now but straight and guided. There is still the distink snap that lets you know it's locked in.

 

That guy on the pistol was movin. I was lagging in my reload. I should have been off the handguard way before the mag fell. Maybe I'll try again with another video doing 9 then 11 and with my mag up front somewhere. Maybe clamped. Are you aloud to clamp mags in your shoots?

 

That bugs me about people trying to restict saiga-12 use. It's like when semi auto pistols was getting put down by revolvers back in the day. Maybe they should trade in them fancy pistols and get a SAA to go with their relic shotguns.

 

Thanks for the time with that very informative post.

[jrance@iacwds.com 716]

Great post Kmoore, thanks alot.

1911

[pedal2alloy 206]

I will probably be able to release them at the same time but if one is first it will be the stick only. There is just more to the version for both. I don't think the version for both has any disadvantages for speed. And it will not effect any of the other features either.

 

Wouldn't the drum need a taller feed tower go into the magwell?

[Oliva 0]

Thats awesome Mike!!

 

You said once that the drum compatible magwell would be after the stick one. Will there be any huge difference in the magwell? or have any negative effect ie slow down, affect bolt release, on mag use?

 

Honestly, I am more focused on the magwell, lrbho, bolt release set up than the drum. The drum is for fun. The mag quick changes is for competition or for saving my ass.

I will probably be able to release them at the same time but if one is first it will be the stick only. There is just more to the version for both. I don't think the version for both has any disadvantages for speed. And it will not effect any of the other features either.

Mike I really like yours innovation, when do you think that the LRBHO and the magwell will be ready?

I would love to test those parts at the big match at Blackwater next month.

Regards

G.

[MikeD 541]

I will probably be able to release them at the same time but if one is first it will be the stick only. There is just more to the version for both. I don't think the version for both has any disadvantages for speed. And it will not effect any of the other features either.

 

Wouldn't the drum need a taller feed tower go into the magwell?

I'm doing a version to work with the drums.

[MikeD 541]

Mike I really like yours innovation, when do you think that the LRBHO and the magwell will be ready?

I would love to test those parts at the big match at Blackwater next month.

Regards

G.

I won't have the magwell done by then, sorry.

 

The LRBHO is Jeric's product. You can contact him through the forum.

[kmoore 3]

I have never done any comp shooting but I don't think I would like the idea of counting rounds.

 

Just to clarify ... most don't actually count rounds. Stages are seen before hand, so shooters make a plan. They usually know between what targets or positions they'll reload. Simple example. Gun starts with 10 in mag and 1 in chamber (10+1). You are going to shoot a plate rack (6 plates), and 4 clays and 6 poppers ... you'd just make a mental note to reload at the end of the clays ... Now if you drop 2 plates with one shot, OR miss a clay ... you have to mentally shift your reload, or decide to keep it (if your are moving after shooting the clays). There's a bunch of variables ... usually one more than my feeble brain can handle under match pressure