Hey all, need your help

[Enigmatic1 0]

Hello all,

 

I didn't find a welcome section, so this is my first post.

 

Alright, I am a Canadian, and I would absolutely love to be a fellow Saiga-12 owner, however, I can't be, as they are prohibited weapons here in Canada, because they are considered AK-47 variants.

 

I think that is absolutely absurd, and I hope you guys do as well, and I hope you can help me prove that, so as to share the Saiga shotguns with your friendly northern neighbors

 

I mean, a 7.62x39MM is 55.8MM long overall, compared to a 18.5MMx76.2MM Shotgun shell, and its a variant? In my books that would classify it enough to be completely different, but the powers that be here in Canada think it still is.

 

I have been contacted by a member of the RCMP who makes those decisions, and he told me if I get materials together, he will review it.

 

This is where (I hope) you guys come in. As we can't own Saiga-12's or AK-47s here, its a little hard for me to get the information on how they differ. If you could provide schematics of both AK-47s and Saiga-12s, pictures of components that differ/are the same (with descriptions as to how they differ, as it might be hard to tell just by pictures) that would be great. Information also on what is, and what is not compatible (if anything) between the 2 would be excellent as well. Saiga-12 hunting stories, or competition stories may also help. Anything that can distance this rifle from the AK-47 would be beneficial.

 

I will get in contact with the distributor of Saiga shotguns again tomorrow, and ask him the same thing, if he can send me any material. Site sponsors, I am sure you would like to get a piece of this 35,000,000 person market up here

 

Couple of questions I have to get the ball rolling:

-Does an AK-47 have an adjustable gas system...? I don't see a need for one on an AK-47, so I would assume not.

-Would a Saiga-12 even be able to cycle with the recoil of a 7.62x39?

 

Thanks all!

[nalioth 405]

-Does an AK-47 have an adjustable gas system...? I don't see a need for one on an AK-47, so I would assume not.

-Would a Saiga-12 even be able to cycle with the recoil of a 7.62x39?

Welcome to the forum

 

The Russian Kalashnikovs don't have an adjustable gas system. The Yugoslavians have instituted an adjustable gas system in one of their .223 Kalashnikov variants.

 

A 12ga with the recoil of a 7.62x39? The laws of physics will not be denied.

[Enigmatic1 0]

Welcome to the forum

 

The Russian Kalashnikovs don't have an adjustable gas system. The Yugoslavians have instituted an adjustable gas system in one of their .223 Kalashnikov variants.

 

A 12ga with the recoil of a 7.62x39? The laws of physics will not be denied.

 

Thank you for the welcome, and the information.

 

I don't exactly follow what you mean about a 12ga with the recoil of a 7.62, and the laws of physics...

 

Any details on wether any of the parts are interchangeable? Receiver? Bolt? Trigger assembly? Would an AK barrel mount to a Saiga-12?

 

Thanks again!

[mscottrogers 56]

Welcome to the forum

 

The Russian Kalashnikovs don't have an adjustable gas system. The Yugoslavians have instituted an adjustable gas system in one of their .223 Kalashnikov variants.

 

A 12ga with the recoil of a 7.62x39? The laws of physics will not be denied.

 

Thank you for the welcome, and the information.

 

I don't exactly follow what you mean about a 12ga with the recoil of a 7.62, and the laws of physics...

 

Any details on wether any of the parts are interchangeable? Receiver? Bolt? Trigger assembly? Would an AK barrel mount to a Saiga-12?

 

Thanks again!

 

It is possible to grind out the rivets for the front trunion, which holds the barrels in, install front trunion with an AK barrel, but then you would have a big metal club. the rails for the bolt would not work, the ejector is different, the mags would not fit.... YOu could put a rifle barrel on any shotgun with a welder, but it will never work.

 

Good luck... I hope you get a saiga. On the RAA site you could copy a picture of the saiga 12 as it is shipped, and it doesn't look like an AK except for the reciever. The only part that can swap over with minimal effort is a semi auto trigger group, which would be an improvement. If you converted it like we do, then it looks like an AK and runs like an AK. so I would not do a conversion, just enjoy as a sport model.

[Enigmatic1 0]

It is possible to grind out the rivets for the front trunion, which holds the barrels in, install front trunion with an AK barrel, but then you would have a big metal club. the rails for the bolt would not work, the ejector is different, the mags would not fit.... YOu could put a rifle barrel on any shotgun with a welder, but it will never work.

 

Good luck... I hope you get a saiga. On the RAA site you could copy a picture of the saiga 12 as it is shipped, and it doesn't look like an AK except for the reciever. The only part that can swap over with minimal effort is a semi auto trigger group, which would be an improvement. If you converted it like we do, then it looks like an AK and runs like an AK. so I would not do a conversion, just enjoy as a sport model.

 

Thank you utahhandyman,

 

I realize you can cut the barrel off any firearm and weld it to any other firearm I was just wondering if it would thread/lock/bolt (as in something easy) into place or what not, but you have answered that, as you say it is mounted via rivets.

 

The rails for the bolt would not work, because of the barrel swap...?

 

How do you mean a semi auto trigger group, as the Saiga-12 is semi auto, are you meaning a semi auto trigger group from a Saiga-12 to a AK-47? Would that mean an AK-47 trigger group could be swapped over to the Saiga-12?

 

What do you do to convert your Saiga-12's, and how do you mean "runs" like an AK.

 

Oh, looks means nothing here in Canada apparently. It seems its just what someone who writes the laws pulls out of a hat. We can get the CZ-858 (non restricted), and the VZ-58 (restricted) which in my opinion to the average viewer would look identical to an AK-47 (both are semi auto, and allowed because they are "new manufacture" firearms) I am not sure if you guys even get those down there...?

 

If someone who has both an AK-47 and a Saiga-12 could post/send me nice big pictures of say, placing a 7.62 MM magazine beside a saiga 12ga magazine, with a ruler at the top for measurements, and that 7.62 MM magazine "placed" into a saiga (as I know it will be WAY to small), and the internal differences of the receiver, how much different the bolts are, how the barrel is mounted, the adjustable gas system, like I said before, anything to show this shotgun has next to nothing in common with an AK, and really can't have anything in common with an AK, except the idea.

 

Thanks again guys for all your help.

[nalioth 405]

Enigmatic1, why not take some time to look over this site and the stickies here?

 

They will answer quite a lot of your questions.

[loki0629 55]

Welcome to the forum.

The short answer to your question is that the Saigas can be made to look like and AK, but will not function like a fully automatic AK. The only ak parts that it will accept are the cosmetic bits (handquards, receiver cover, buttstock, pistolgrip, etc). There are replacement triggers out there but they are all for semi-auto function only. So if someone were to get the internals of an illegal, fully auto AK, they can't just drop it into a Saiga receiver and blast away. I should note that it is possible after the conversion is done to use to standard AK magazines.

 

So because the Saigas can be made to look and feel like an AK, they can be handled and operated like one but only as far as ergonomics go. It will always be a semi-auto weapon in function.

 

There are numerous posts on this board on the whole conversion process and plenty of before and after pictures.

 

I wish you the best of luck in this particular endeavor.

[Enigmatic1 0]

Enigmatic1, why not take some time to look over this site and the stickies here?

 

They will answer quite a lot of your questions.

 

 

I will give that a shot, I found one diagram already in the tech section, but that really doesn't help me that much..

[Enigmatic1 0]

Welcome to the forum.

The short answer to your question is that the Saigas can be made to look like and AK, but will not function like a fully automatic AK. The only ak parts that it will accept are the cosmetic bits (handquards, receiver cover, buttstock, pistolgrip, etc). There are replacement triggers out there but they are all for semi-auto function only. So if someone were to get the internals of an illegal, fully auto AK, they can't just drop it into a Saiga receiver and blast away. I should note that it is possible after the conversion is done to use to standard AK magazines.

 

So because the Saigas can be made to look and feel like an AK, they can be handled and operated like one but only as far as ergonomics go. It will always be a semi-auto weapon in function.

 

There are numerous posts on this board on the whole conversion process and plenty of before and after pictures.

 

I wish you the best of luck in this particular endeavor.

 

Thank you for the information GunnyR,

 

I will try to find those pictures.

[BobAsh 582]

...we can't own Saiga-12's or AK-47s here, its a little hard for me to get the information on how they differ.

Well the big (I would daresay obvious) difference is that the S-12 is a shotgun. Other than that there is no function difference to a semi-auto AK.

 

However in many restrictive countries (England and Japan, for instance) shotguns are allowed, since they dont throw a single, heavy projectile.

 

 

Would a Saiga-12 even be able to cycle with the recoil of a 7.62x39?

 

You're going to have to clarify this question.

[Enigmatic1 0]

...we can't own Saiga-12's or AK-47s here, its a little hard for me to get the information on how they differ.

Well the big (I would daresay obvious) difference is that the S-12 is a shotgun. Other than that there is no function difference to a semi-auto AK.

 

However in many restrictive countries (England and Japan, for instance) shotguns are allowed, since they dont throw a single, heavy projectile.

 

 

Would a Saiga-12 even be able to cycle with the recoil of a 7.62x39?

 

You're going to have to clarify this question.

 

Haha, thanks BobAsh, yes, I realize that it is just a semi auto shotgun, however, the CFC needs to realize that same thing (so I can own one legally hopefully) I would think that the bolt would be longer, thicker, and heavier than a 7.62 rifle, yes/no?

 

In our restrictive country, we are allowed semi auto rifles and shotguns. But thank you, that will be a good point for me to make, our mother country England allows Saiga12's.

 

Regarding that recoild question, I am under the impression that a 12ga shotgun's recoils is quite a bit higher than a 7.62x39, so I was wondering if the Saiga-12 gas system was adjusted to its lowest point, if then even it would be able to cycle a 7.62. Anything to distance the two.