Patriot12 11 Posted March 7, 2009 Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 Due to problems that I had firing 12x 3in shells in a 12rd surefire mag, I cut it down to the 8rd mark. This appears to increse the spring tension as well as give it a more erganomical size. I am thinking about keeping a 8rd mag fully loaded (not inserted in saiga) for home defense. Has anyone kept one of these 8rd mags fully load for long periods of time? Any trouble with lose of spring tension? I have promags and have compared the springs side by side as well as the original 5rd mag spring. I noticed that the surefire springs are actually the same gauge as the promags and RAA, but are longer and have more coils 18 vs promags 15. The procieved weaker surefire spring seems to come from the fact that the 12rd body is longer than the promag 10rd. The promags springs also have a steeper coil. This actually makes me believe that the sure fire has the better spring after all. Once reducing the mag body down to 8rds the tension increases. I believe the fact that the surefire has no steel lip is actually a plus. The shells come out more smoothly. I have not tried the AGP mags yet, but so far I believe that the surefire 8rds are probably the best mags to get for 3in shells. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted March 7, 2009 Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 I've kept a 12 rounder pretty much constantly loaded for about a month now. This is, when I wasn't shooting or cleaning it. Shot it today without an issue. I've read that it's not the compression that weakens a spring so much as the flexing back and forth from actual use/loading/unloading. My Grandpa had some loaded M1 carbine mags that I KNOW stayed loaded for at least 10 years before he shot them. Probably longer than that. Corbin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Patriot12 11 Posted March 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 I've kept a 12 rounder pretty much constantly loaded for about a month now. This is, when I wasn't shooting or cleaning it. Shot it today without an issue. I've read that it's not the compression that weakens a spring so much as the flexing back and forth from actual use/loading/unloading. My Grandpa had some loaded M1 carbine mags that I KNOW stayed loaded for at least 10 years before he shot them. Probably longer than that. Corbin Did you have it loadd with 3in or 2 3/4in shells? If 3in what type? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mortal Sword 0 Posted March 7, 2009 Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 Out of curiosity, is there any advantage to cutting the 12-rounders down to 8, over buying the 8-rounders outright? Aside from the possibility of squeezing an extra shell in, that is. I'm mainly (almost entirely, in fact) concerned with reliability in my mags. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Patriot12 11 Posted March 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 Out of curiosity, is there any advantage to cutting the 12-rounders down to 8, over buying the 8-rounders outright? Aside from the possibility of squeezing an extra shell in, that is. I'm mainly (almost entirely, in fact) concerned with reliability in my mags. Buying a 8rd mag is the same as cutting a 12rd one plus the cost saving. I had trouble firing 12x 3in shells so I descided to make them 8rders. So far it was a very good descision. I wish I bought 8rders out right, this cutting option allows me to correct a mistake. I believe that the 8rd sure fire mags are the most reliable available. I even prefer them over promag and Saiga original. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mortal Sword 0 Posted March 7, 2009 Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 Out of curiosity, is there any advantage to cutting the 12-rounders down to 8, over buying the 8-rounders outright? Aside from the possibility of squeezing an extra shell in, that is. I'm mainly (almost entirely, in fact) concerned with reliability in my mags. Buying a 8rd mag is the same as cutting a 12rd one plus the cost saving. I had trouble firing 12x 3in shells so I descided to make them 8rders. So far it was a very good descision. I wish I bought 8rders out right, this cutting option allows me to correct a mistake. I believe that the 8rd sure fire mags are the most reliable available. I even prefer them over promag and Saiga original. Excellent, thank you for the response. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gpqueen 545 Posted March 7, 2009 Report Share Posted March 7, 2009 Out of curiosity, is there any advantage to cutting the 12-rounders down to 8, over buying the 8-rounders outright? Aside from the possibility of squeezing an extra shell in, that is. I'm mainly (almost entirely, in fact) concerned with reliability in my mags. Buying a 8rd mag is the same as cutting a 12rd one plus the cost saving. I had trouble firing 12x 3in shells so I descided to make them 8rders. So far it was a very good descision. I wish I bought 8rders out right, this cutting option allows me to correct a mistake. I believe that the 8rd sure fire mags are the most reliable available. I even prefer them over promag and Saiga original. Just to let everyone know we have a limited time sale on the Surefire 8 and 10 round magazines for $43.95 Greg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Patriot12 11 Posted March 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 Out of curiosity, is there any advantage to cutting the 12-rounders down to 8, over buying the 8-rounders outright? Aside from the possibility of squeezing an extra shell in, that is. I'm mainly (almost entirely, in fact) concerned with reliability in my mags. Buying a 8rd mag is the same as cutting a 12rd one plus the cost saving. I had trouble firing 12x 3in shells so I descided to make them 8rders. So far it was a very good descision. I wish I bought 8rders out right, this cutting option allows me to correct a mistake. I believe that the 8rd sure fire mags are the most reliable available. I even prefer them over promag and Saiga original. Just to let everyone know we have a limited time sale on the Surefire 8 and 10 round magazines for $43.95 Greg One more thing about surefire is the fact that they don't use steel lips is a plus. The shells come out more smoothly and it is one less part to fail. The 12rd mags are just fine if you don't mind the length and are firing 2 3/4 shells. For 3in shells and for tacticle reasons the 8rd ones are the best. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 My 12 rounder is loaded up with 2 3/4" #4 buck. I bought a boatload of it for making the video for CSS and still have about 20 rounds left. As for 12 vs. 8, for ME and my taste, I like the feel and look of the 8 rounder a bit more. I don't know if the spring is the same length between them, as it would be if you cut a 12'er down. If not, then the tension would obviously be stronger in a converted 8 shot than a factory one. Though I haven't experienced it myself, I understand that if you're going to be shooting heavier loads like buckshot or slugs, having a stronger spring in the mag will help let the follower keep up with the faster cycling bolt. Conversely, if you're shooting lighter loads that MAY already have trouble kicking the bolt back all the way, having a lighter mag spring will keep the top round from excessively dragging on the underside of the bolt, decreasing the chance of a FTE. I've shot heavier and lighter rounds through the same Surefire mag however without a problem. Rapid fire too. Though it's harder to control, the heavier rounds will always cycle the action more reliably, so long as the mag can keep up....which it has. Corbin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mortal Sword 0 Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 I don't know if the spring is the same length between them, as it would be if you cut a 12'er down. If not, then the tension would obviously be stronger in a converted 8 shot than a factory one. Though I haven't experienced it myself, I understand that if you're going to be shooting heavier loads like buckshot or slugs, having a stronger spring in the mag will help let the follower keep up with the faster cycling bolt. This is mainly why I asked my question earlier. Since I'm looking at the Saiga to fulfill a defensive role, I want to be able to shoot buckshot and slugs with it reliably. If a 12 converted to 8 is better for that purpose than a factory 8, I'll purchase the 12s and chop them. If there's no difference, then I'll buy more 8s. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Patriot12 11 Posted March 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 I don't know if the spring is the same length between them, as it would be if you cut a 12'er down. If not, then the tension would obviously be stronger in a converted 8 shot than a factory one. Though I haven't experienced it myself, I understand that if you're going to be shooting heavier loads like buckshot or slugs, having a stronger spring in the mag will help let the follower keep up with the faster cycling bolt. This is mainly why I asked my question earlier. Since I'm looking at the Saiga to fulfill a defensive role, I want to be able to shoot buckshot and slugs with it reliably. If a 12 converted to 8 is better for that purpose than a factory 8, I'll purchase the 12s and chop them. If there's no difference, then I'll buy more 8s. The factory 8s are actually the most desired, but I like the surefire 8s. A 8rd surefire mag is the same as chopping down a 12rd one. I have 10x 12rd ones that have been 100% reliable with 2 3/4in shells and 100% reliable with 3in if I only load 7 in a 12rd one. This has given me confidance that a 8rd sure fire mag is the best one for home defense. I also like the fact that they do not have steel lips. For that reason alone I prefer them over the factor ones and everyone else. I have never heard of a 8rd surefire mag failing with any shell. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 (edited) I agree that the 8 rounders are a more handy size. I haven't shot any 3" shells through them though, so I can't speak with any authority on the reliability of the 12 rd mags there. I think I'm going to chop my other 12 rounder down to 8 though. Corbin P.S. I've not had much experience with any other mags besides Surefire (except the stock 5 rounder and my new MD-20 I got yesterday), but I'm pretty comfortable in my choice of using Surefires. I have a clear AGP mag that has never even been loaded, and will likely never be shot by me. I have to say that it looks and fits well, but will probably just be an investment that I'll sell eventually. Edited March 8, 2009 by Corbin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bcelliott 6 Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 After buying and shooting several 12-rnd Surefires, I cut them all down to 8 rnds and am very happy with the decision. I keep a couple loaded and have never had a misfire with the mags no matter what the load. I'm keeping my 5 rounders, but will probably trade my AGPs for Surefires. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mortal Sword 0 Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 Is there a preferred method for cutting the 12-rounders down, as in specific tools and precautions one should utilize to keep from butchering the mags in the process? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Raoul_Duke 113 Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 (edited) 100% reliable with 3in if I only load 7 in a 12rd one. I have never heard of a 8rd surefire mag failing with any shell. This is more along the lines of information I've been looking for. We've heard of the 12 rounders and AGP's breaking while fully loaded with 3" rounds, what about the 8's? Anyone else? I would love to test mine (I've got some 12's I can cut down) but I've been kinda busy, and will be for at least a couple of weeks. I live in the damned city and have to go to a gun range, I don't have the luxury of being able to shoot in my back yard! That's the only reason I was looking at the promags (the other mags breaking), ran across that price, and started that other thread to pass along the price. Anyone? Oh, and if I'm jackin' the thread, tell me and I'll delete the post . . . Edited March 8, 2009 by Raoul_Duke Quote Link to post Share on other sites
officer960 0 Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 I have thought about cutting a few of my Surefire 12's down to 8's, but had some concern about the warranty. Will chopping them down void it? I don't want to do the mod if it does since I just sent two back that snapped off after shooting 3 inch shells. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rd99fxdl 17 Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 I've got the 8s and 12s and they do have the same spring in each from the factory. I've had good luck with either of them pretty much shooting anything I want through them. Some people have had troubles with the 3"mag 00 buck breaking off the front of the mag but thats one helluva load,and aint for a lot of shooting as much as they cost. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Patriot12 11 Posted March 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 I've got the 8s and 12s and they do have the same spring in each from the factory.I've had good luck with either of them pretty much shooting anything I want through them. Some people have had troubles with the 3"mag 00 buck breaking off the front of the mag but thats one helluva load,and aint for a lot of shooting as much as they cost. I wonder what really made those sure fire 12rd mags break. All the cases I have read about it was the result of a stove pipe misfeed. It sounds like one malfunction caused another. I noticed with the promags that if push up on them too hard, when locking it into the reciever, it is possible to push it too high causing the bolt carrier guides to come in contact with the lip and the bolt can even come into contact with the mag itself. If I was to fire it like this it would tear the steel lips off and even the front tab. I can imagine that if the bolt comes into contact with the back of the magazine it would most definatly cause it to break at the front tab. I know that these saigas have loose tolerances and these mags may seat differently in different guns. I believe that this may be more of the cause of these 12rd mags breaking with magnum loads than simply over stressing the zytle plastic which is really strong. You can even check to see if this is even a remote possibility by removing the reciever cover and looking at the bolt with the mag inserted. Move the bolt back and forth as you try to wiggle the mag with your hand. If the bolt just barely touches the mag, you may have a potential problem. If so, just simply take a file and file down the mag until there is no possible way the bolt can touch it. I did not have to do this with the surefire mags, but I did have to the my promags. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vbrtrmn 167 Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Just to let everyone know we have a limited time sale on the Surefire 8 and 10 round magazines for $43.95Greg Damn you and your top rate service, Greg, I thought I'd be done buying stuff for my S12 for awhile. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mortal Sword 0 Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Any tips or tutorials out there on cutting the Surefires down? My searches here and via Google have come to naught. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bcelliott 6 Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Any tips or tutorials out there on cutting the Surefires down? My searches here and via Google have come to naught. I pushed up the bottom of the spring, slid off the floorplate, removed the spring and follower. Then I used a hack saw on the mag mounted in a vice to cut the mag just below the rib at the 8-round length. Then I sanded down the cut even with the bottom of the rib and replaced the follower, spring, and floorplate. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Raoul_Duke 113 Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 I wonder what really made those sure fire 12rd mags break. I believe someone suggested the idea that the heavier weight of the 3" magnums could have something to do with it. That's why I'm so curious as to if anyone has had the shorter ones break under the same exact circumstances as the 12 rounders. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mortal Sword 0 Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Any tips or tutorials out there on cutting the Surefires down? My searches here and via Google have come to naught. I pushed up the bottom of the spring, slid off the floorplate, removed the spring and follower. Then I used a hack saw on the mag mounted in a vice to cut the mag just below the rib at the 8-round length. Then I sanded down the cut even with the bottom of the rib and replaced the follower, spring, and floorplate. So, it doesn't require anything fancy then, gotcha. Just wanted to make sure before I modded mine and made some idiotic mistake. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Patriot12 11 Posted March 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 I wonder what really made those sure fire 12rd mags break. I believe someone suggested the idea that the heavier weight of the 3" magnums could have something to do with it. That's why I'm so curious as to if anyone has had the shorter ones break under the same exact circumstances as the 12 rounders. If my theory is correct, the increased force from the magnum recoil as well as the leverage from the extra lenght of a 10 or 12rd mag can cause the back of the mag to get pushed up higher in the reciever to the point where the bolt hits the back of the mag and causing the front tab to break off. I bet that this is what is happening to some of the AGP mags as well. That is why I recommended incerting a mag, removing the reciever cover and working the bolt back and forth at the sametime as wiggling the mag with you other hand. If it touches, file it until it doesn't and it should never break. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spartacus 1,619 Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 This issue of broken mags is really getting to me and I don't even have the S-12 or any mags yet (just ordered both days ago). The whole idea behind my buying a "street sweeper" type of shotgun is to be able to defend my home/family from a possible attack by well armed/trained "Zombies". So what if the gun doesn't break mags with light target loads?! Is that the point of this type of weapon to shoot only target loads? I don't think so.... While target shooting is a real hoot, these weapons serve a much more important role as self-defense (2nd amendment thing comes to mind). I want to be able to very quickly launch a sh!t-storm of 00 buck and heavy slugs at whomever may be illegally kicking down my door. I'm picturing my door being kicked in, me pulling the trigger on the S-12, the mag breaking and dropping off the gun, and me dropping just after the mag with some .223 hits to my forehead. Not a good day for defending life & liberty! Why am I buying into a setup that breaks mags with defense loads? Is this a case of RAAC needing to mill the bolt carriers so they don't impact the mags? Do the mags need steel inserts as somebody has already mentioned? I'm starting to re-think this choice...... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Patriot12 11 Posted March 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 This issue of broken mags is really getting to me and I don't even have the S-12or any mags yet (just ordered both days ago). The whole idea behind my buying a "street sweeper" type of shotgun is to be able to defend my home/family from a possible attack by well armed/trained "Zombies". So what if the gun doesn't break mags with light target loads?! Is that the point of this type of weapon to shoot only target loads? I don't think so.... While target shooting is a real hoot, these weapons serve a much more important role as self-defense (2nd amendment thing comes to mind). I want to be able to very quickly launch a sh!t-storm of 00 buck and heavy slugs at whomever may be illegally kicking down my door. I'm picturing my door being kicked in, me pulling the trigger on the S-12, the mag breaking and dropping off the gun, and me dropping just after the mag with some .223 hits to my forehead. Not a good day for defending life & liberty! Why am I buying into a setup that breaks mags with defense loads? Is this a case of RAAC needing to mill the bolt carriers so they don't impact the mags? Do the mags need steel inserts as somebody has already mentioned? I'm starting to re-think this choice...... If you remember nothing else, as long as you have a Saiga 12 with a 8rnd surefire mag, you will not have anything to worry about. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Raoul_Duke 113 Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 This issue of broken mags is really getting to me and I don't even have the S-12or any mags yet (just ordered both days ago). The whole idea behind my buying a "street sweeper" type of shotgun is to be able to defend my home/family from a possible attack by well armed/trained "Zombies". So what if the gun doesn't break mags with light target loads?! Is that the point of this type of weapon to shoot only target loads? I don't think so.... While target shooting is a real hoot, these weapons serve a much more important role as self-defense (2nd amendment thing comes to mind). I want to be able to very quickly launch a sh!t-storm of 00 buck and heavy slugs at whomever may be illegally kicking down my door. I'm picturing my door being kicked in, me pulling the trigger on the S-12, the mag breaking and dropping off the gun, and me dropping just after the mag with some .223 hits to my forehead. Not a good day for defending life & liberty! Why am I buying into a setup that breaks mags with defense loads? Is this a case of RAAC needing to mill the bolt carriers so they don't impact the mags? Do the mags need steel inserts as somebody has already mentioned? I'm starting to re-think this choice...... I didn't mean to scare you! Trust me, you made a great purchase! All the talk is about 3" magnum loads. I personally have ran many mags full of them through my four Gen 1 AGP's and a couple through one of my Gen 2's. I have ran my Surefire 12 rounders (FULLY loaded) with 2 3/4" buckshot and slugs. No problems. Same with my AGP's. And of course my MD-20! And even with the factory five's, you still get faster follow-up shots and full reloads than with a pump unless you are well trained/taught/whatever. I just run 3" loads through my factory mags and 2 3/4" through everything else. You can use 3" for defense, but 2 3/4" is plenty adequate and allows for faster follow-up shots, if necessary. I only recall reading of one or two cases of them breaking with 2 3/4" rounds. Just test your mags thoroughly when you get them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted March 9, 2009 Report Share Posted March 9, 2009 Good advice Patriot. By the way, I JUST finished video that explains the mag conversion. Enjoy. Corbin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Genocide 0 Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Good advice Patriot. By the way, I JUST finished video that explains the mag conversion. Enjoy. Corbin Thanks Corbin! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mortal Sword 0 Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Good advice Patriot. By the way, I JUST finished video that explains the mag conversion. Enjoy. Corbin Excellent. Clearly I was being too cautious, but I suppose better too cautious than not cautious enough. Thanks much. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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