New to board, Just got my Saiga .308 - I'm pumped

[FirstFreedom 0]

New to board. I just got the wood-stocked, 21.8" bbl version, .308 Saiga on a bit of an impulse purchase. First .308 ever. First Saiga ever. Second AK-style rifle ever (other one is a Norinco MAK90, 7.62x39). I'm fired up about using this gun as an all-purpose hunter and defender. If it's accurate enough and if I like it enough, and if 20-rounders are forthcoming, I think it can supplant several other rifles, including 2 hunting turnbolts and a .223 EBR (at least until such time as I get an M1A ). Can anyone answer some of my questions please. I'm very lazy so I haven't read the documentation yet.

 

1. What is the barrel twist rate?

2. What ammo will it likely shoot best with?

3. What kind of accuracy can I expect? I'm hoping for 4-5" @ 100 yds with surplus, and 2.5 - 3" with good ammo, if I do my part, but we'll see. Are my expectations too high?

4. Is there any appreciable accuracy difference in the 16" and the 22"? (I came *so* close to getting the 16" one instead, and still plan to get it also at some point, as a pickup truck gun)

5. How much velocity loss does one lose in a typical (168 gr) .308 load in losing the 6", from 22 to 16? 100, 200 fps, what?

6. What's the best scope mount to go on the side base, and good source for same?

7. What power scope should I put on it, do you think.. fixed 2.5/3, fixed 4, fixed 6, 1-4, 1.75-6, 2-7, 3-9, or 4-12? I'm thinking 1.75-6 Leupold vx-3.

Edited February 23, 2005 by FirstFreedom

[RooK 0]

1.  What is the barrel twist rate?

 

1 in 12.3 or there abouts.

 

2.  What ammo will it likely shoot best with?

Anything in the 150gr range should do good.

 

3.  What kind of accuracy can I expect?  I'm hoping for 4-5" @ 100 yds with surplus, and 2.5 - 3" with good ammo, if I do my part, but we'll see.  Are my expectations too high?

 

You should be able to pull of the 2.5-3" with surplus.

 

4.  Is there any appreciable accuracy difference in the 16" and the 22"?  (I came *so* close to getting the 16" one instead, and still plan to get it also at some point, as a pickup truck gun)

16" is generally considered to have more accuracy, probably due to the stiffness of the shorter tube. But plenty of people on here have great accuracy with the 22".

 

5.  How much velocity loss does one lose in a typical (168 gr) .308 load in losing the 6", from 22 to 16?  100, 200 fps, what?

 

25fps per inch is the standard rule I think. No one with a 16" has done any extensive chronographing to my knowledge.

 

6.  What's the best scope mount to go on the side base, and good source for same?

KVars get good reviews, but they're expensive. I don't use one so it's better answered by someone else. I do know some of the cheaper solutions shoot loose though.

 

7.  What power scope should I put on it, do you think.. fixed 2.5/3, fixed 4, fixed 6, 1-4, 1.75-6, 2-7, 3-9, or 4-12?  I'm thinking 1.75-6 Leupold vx-3.

 

Depends on the range. Woods work I'd stick with irons or 1-5x (or 2-7) up to a 3-9x model for more open areas. If it was for exclusive target practice in military fashion, I'd get a fixed 10x.

[IndyArms 10,186]

Well.... that bout sums that up... thanks Rook!

 

[FirstFreedom 0]

Rook, you are DA MAN! Thanks. Hmm, so heavy loads, like 180s, would likely not stabilize with that twist? Would they even feed?

 

I've been looking here at some scope/mount combos..

 

http://tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/bstpso.html

 

What other good online stores?

[AKhunter 0]

If I recall correctly, back in the day when .308 match rifles had a 12 twist, the ideal bullet weight was 168 grain. Sorry, no source for that.

 

ymmv,

 

AK

 

ps. Is this the same FirstFreedom who I've seen on TFL? If so, welcome to the club!

[GPdave 0]

Ya, from another tfl'er (i use a different name there, WELCOME!!!)

 

gpdave

[Tokageko 8]

Congrats on the purchase and welcome to the forum. As far as the answers to your questions go, I'll see if I can even answer them in the order you posted them.

 

As was said, the twist rate is somewhere between 12 and 13 inches. I haven't tried any of the heavier bullets in my reloading yet, but they should do fine. In other words, nothing springs to mind immediately as a reason they wouldn't. The 168 grain HPBT was standard in match loadings for the 308 for quite a while, as was the 174 grain HPBT. I'll be going to the range today, so I'll see if I can get some match 308 loads to take along and shoot for groups at 100 yards.

 

What I have found is that my rifle seems to like the lighter bullets, in the 140-150 range. As such, the Aussie surplus and the South African surplus both have given me good results. With those and fixed 6x scope, I can get one inch groups at 100 yards. I haven't heard of many people who get more than 2 or 3 inches at 100 yards.

 

As far as velocity loss goes, I believe the rule is 30-50 fps per inch of barrel length. That's all I can remember at the moment, so more detailed info will have to wait, or be taken care of by someone else. Hope this helps.

[FirstFreedom 0]

Thanks again everyone. Say, so is the twist rate on the 16 incher also 1 in 12? If so, then perhaps the 22 incher will stabilize 174s, but not-so-well on the 16? Or does the 16 have a 1 in 10 twist? I ask because I'm thinking of getting the 16" one also as a pickup gun, but if I did, I'd want to find one good load to load up in quantity (handload) for both, and I prefer *generally* heavier bullets with better BCs and penetration for hunting and other purposes, so I'm interested in 180s or 174s, or at a minimum, 168s, that will be accurate in both. Or, if this is not possible, I'd probably get a different gun as a truck gun, and just find a 174 or 180 load that works with the 22 incher (both feeding, OAL-wise, and accuracy).

 

Tokageko, please let me know if you glean any more info from your range trip(s). I'm going to be really really happy if I can get under 2" with some of the South African surplus (I think that's what I have, in the big plastic gray/green battle pack). Need a scope and mount first however, as my eyes aren't good enough to get out of a rifle what it can do, just using irons. I also just bought 1 box of Hornady 168 gr, HPBT ammo, and so I'll post how this does then I get optified and to the range.

Edited February 25, 2005 by FirstFreedom

[Tokageko 8]

Well, I was going to hold off on saying anything, but I did get a chance to try both 168 grain and 173 grain loads in my 308 (22").

 

The bad news, if this even counts as bad news, is that I wasn't able to do any shooting at ranges beyond 25 yards. My stapler broke just after I put up my first target at that range to sight it in. I had been using the scope for something else and it was far off from where it needed to be.

 

During the initial sight in, I used the South African surplus. It aslo was good to get a little practice before shooting for groups. I think the fact that it warmed up the barrel first was good too. Anyway, to the point: all of the loads I brought along shot to about the same place. I would estimate that the 150s would shoot about an inch higher at 100 yards (1/4 inch difference at 25). Both the 168s and the 173s shot tight groups, at least on par with the 150s I usually use. It may be worth it to experiment with different powders charges, but I think that they should do fine as is.

 

For the record: I was using assorted military cases, standard large rifle primers (not sure of the brand), and 41.5 grains of IMR 4064.

 

As far as iron sights go, I can sympathize. My eyes are still pretty good, but the sights on the saiga rifles leave a lot to be desired. One of the things I am planning on doing is upgrading the sights. In particular, ACE ltd. (www.aceltd.com I think) sells an AK type windage plug /sight bed/whatever-you-want-to-call-it, that replaces the original and accepts AR15 front sight posts. There are a good selection of match-type AR front sights out there. I'm looking at the ones from KNS. You can find them on the Brownells website. The other thing I'd like to do is replace the rear sight with a windage adjustable peep sight. Ideally, it would just replace the factory rear sight leaf. Though, if done properly, the Krebs Custom AR15-type rear sight (mounted to the receiver cover) could work also.

 

I'll be sure to keep everyone updated as the work progresses.

 

Oh, before I forget: I'm not absolutely certain, but I believe the twist rate is the same for both the 16" and the 22" barrels. If anyone knows for certain, please let us know. Either way, both rifles should shoot the 150, 165, and 168 with acceptable hunting accuracy.