New Prototype 14 rd Mag Testing Videos

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Now is a great time for S-20 owners, and those who have been on the fence about buying one. We now have several MFGs who are producing domestic mags for the S-20, so we are no longer limited to the factory 5 rd mags, or harder to get 8 and 10 rd mags.

I was asked (and several others also...) to try some prototypes of this new mag to evaluate it and help them with it's development. They have been making adjustments according to feedback received from testers. This is the third one I have tested. Also looking forward to testing some of the other new mags on the market as soon as they arrive.

 

Here is a video of me shooting my S-20 with a factory 8 rd mag, just to be sure my gun is functioning 100% with the same ammo I'm testing the mag with. (Federal bulk pack from Walmart...2 1/2 Dram, 7/8 oz, 7 1/2 shot)

 

Sorry for the crappy resolution...my camera takes great pics but sucks at video production.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6reyKBa97ZM

 

 

Now here is a video of me trying 14 rds in the new mag, with a few FTEs.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wExMMr-v7Nc

 

 

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

In my observations lately, I have seen that a lot of FTEs in Saiga shotguns are actually caused by the ejector throwing the hulls in inconsistent directions, including nearly straight up into the dust cover. So after having several runs where I couldn't get through a whole mag without FTEs, I decided to try a couple of runs without the dustcover installed. Sure enough...I had better results. Now as far as the gun running 100% with factory mags...with the dustcover in place...I can only guess that there is something going on with some after market mags that is effecting proper ejection. Maybe the next round is rising up and interfering with the path of the empty hull trying to exit? If the shell is not held firmly in place in the mag, and is allowed to tilt upward before being stripped from the feed lips, I could see this happening...just a guess though.

Still had one FTE even without dustcover....but it was the last round, so all rounds fed.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=judkGPdkUpQ

 

 

Again without the dustcover. Again just one FTE....

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6komnlURaM

 

I should also mention that this particular S-20 has a reduced power recoil spring installed (a Colt 1911 spring with a few coils cut off), has had the bolt, carrier, FCG, and rails polished, and seems to do about the same with either the factory gas plug on #2, or the Gunfixr's plug on #3. It has the factory piston (or "puck").

It also has a 20 inch barrel with fixed full choke from the factory, and nothing done to the gas ports.

 

[GeorgiaPD 408]

Great information and videos Shannon. I appreciate it as I was currently considering a 20 for the wife

[going12220 125]

[kmoore 3]

Great information and videos Shannon. I appreciate it as I was currently considering a 20 for the wife

I hope it wouldn't be for home/self defense. The S20's are a good bit more finicky, tho I don't use mine for "serious" purposes so I don't know how the reliability with slugs/buck is in general. Stronger loaded ammo may bring instant reliability ... tho who has the money to prove that? heh

 

If you are looking for a low recoiling shotgun for serious work, I'd think 12ga with reduced recoil buck would be exactly what I'd want to try first.

 

Sorry for the thread drift. These mags show great potential, tho I'm wondering (like you Shannon) what the deal with the inconsistent ejection is ... what is the root cause? BTW, the single hiccup seemed to be mid mag ...

 

If I had the smarts I'd start work on a belt fed version and be done with all of this! In the style of crocodile dundee "that's not a street sweeper. THAT's a street sweeper"

Edited July 10, 2010 by kmoore

[going12220 125]

I believe a lot of the R&D on the 20 ga. has not been done yet.

This in no small part due to the limited sales of the gun in the U.S.A. because of the difficulty in getting mags for it.

When there are enough guns floating around in the hands of shooters the same people who developed modifications, parts, and equipment to support the 12 ga. will turn more of their time and attention to the 20.

Kind of the "if you build it he will come" thing.

While for the most part I use 1 oz. loads because of the rules to make the power factor in 3 gun, (and fills in the pattern better for clays) a smaller built shooter woman / youngster might enjoy shooting 7/8 oz. loads with less recoil than those or a 1 1/8 oz. out of a 12.

I would think if there is enough a market for them the a ammunition maker would make managed recoil slugs and buckshot for the 20 as they do for the 12, but this is all just my speculations and a bunch of sales of guns and demand away.

As to the 20 for self defense just guessing but I would have to believe there are several business members who could build up a a gun as reliable as a 12. PP&S Polish, Porting, and Springs to match the ammo used (including finding something better than the 50 lb extractor spring they come with)

Guess in time we'll see how it all plays out, should be interesting anyway.

Edited July 10, 2010 by going12220

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

That's actually the very next thing I'm going to try with my gun, to see if it will improve the steady ejection. I'm going to work with the extractor spring and do some experimenting. I've been doing this with the S-12s with very favorable results. The S-20 isn't the only one I've seen having problems due to ejected hulls kicking up into, and getting hung up on the dust cover. First I noticed this with the 410. Had to open one up for a friend to avoid this being a constant problem, but that was mostly because he had bought the gun with a regular AK rifle dust cover installed on it. It did make me start thinking about this problem though. As many stove pipes as I've seen over the years I have to wonder just how many may have actually been caused by the hull bouncing back off the dust cover and into the action? If you notice in the videos with the dust cover removed, you can see at least a couple of hulls get tossed almost straight up. Those would have probably at least hit the dust cover.

As mentioned, the S-20 is far more finicky in general, at least part of the reason for it's lack of popularity compared to the 12. Mag availability (or lack thereof) is only part of it. These bitches have given all the best builders problems. That's why you don't see as many high end builds done on the S-20 platform. You are correct, the more S-20s we start to see in people's hands and on their workbenches, and thanks to people like going12220, the more mags ans parts we see come available...the more improvements we will start to see on them. I haven't done any port work yet on my own S-20, although I know it could use it. I did all the other mods to get it to run the low brass, before things like lighter recoil springs and extra polishing in the action were common knowledge like they are now. I went that route instead of opening the ports like I knew it needed, because when I converted it I JB welded the lower HG retainer in place, along with the steel vented upper HG, leaving my gas block semi-permanently immovable. I even considered drilling an access hole in the top of the GB so I could go in anyway and enlarge or add a port, long before Cadiz started doing that as part of their warranty repair service. I was just going to drill about a 1/4" hole slightly behind the port location (toward the rear of the gun), then do what I had to do, and go back and tap / plug the access hole afterward. Ended up getting it to run good with my other mods instead and putting that off til later when I was ready to chop my barrel back and and add a poly choke Tony bored for me to fit my barrel's OD. That was years ago, before I discovered how easy it really is to R&R a gas block and do it right. Now when I have time I will probably just do it that way. But like most people, when I started buying more S-12s, and working on them, my already functional S-20 got shuffled back in the safe, even though I already had a few 8rd factory mags for it. The ammo cost more for it, and the 12 was just so much more impressive and fun I neglected my poor S-20 except when Racegal wanted to shoot.

I will no doubt be paying lots more attention to it now though, as I can't take the recoil of the S-12 as much as I used to be able to no problem....After my cancer surgeries this past year, I've unfortunately lost a lot of the use of my right shoulder and arm. Those fuckers severed a nerve that runs from my neck, down over my shoulder and tells my arm what to do. I can't even lift my arm past shoulder height any more if held straight out sideways. It fucking sucks! The muscles are there, though much smaller now, but they don't work any more like they used to. Last weekend I found out just how painful it can be to go through that many mags worth of 20 and 12 ga ammo, even using a GL pad on both my AK stocks. Wanted to do a full test of the new 12 ga adapters with the rifled slug chokes but didn't make it past sighting in first with remy sluggers. DAMMIT!

 

Sorry for rambling....

 

[GeorgiaPD 408]

Great information and videos Shannon. I appreciate it as I was currently considering a 20 for the wife

I hope it wouldn't be for home/self defense. The S20's are a good bit more finicky, tho I don't use mine for "serious" purposes so I don't know how the reliability with slugs/buck is in general. Stronger loaded ammo may bring instant reliability ... tho who has the money to prove that? heh

 

If you are looking for a low recoiling shotgun for serious work, I'd think 12ga with reduced recoil buck would be exactly what I'd want to try first.

 

 

Kmoore,

 

I appreciate the concern, but since she is also a police officer, we have the whole home defense thing covered, lol.

 

She is just interested in the S20 because she is already familiar with that particular size of shell. For some reason she shoots her 20 gauge O/U shotgun better than her 12 gauge O/U in trap and skeet. Both guns are set up identical, so I have yet to figure it out. But, if she wants a 20, then she will have a 20 and I can keep buying "Keepsakes" without any questions

[kmoore 3]

Great information and videos Shannon. I appreciate it as I was currently considering a 20 for the wife

I hope it wouldn't be for home/self defense. The S20's are a good bit more finicky, tho I don't use mine for "serious" purposes so I don't know how the reliability with slugs/buck is in general. Stronger loaded ammo may bring instant reliability ... tho who has the money to prove that? heh

 

If you are looking for a low recoiling shotgun for serious work, I'd think 12ga with reduced recoil buck would be exactly what I'd want to try first.

 

 

Kmoore,

 

I appreciate the concern, but since she is also a police officer, we have the whole home defense thing covered, lol.

 

She is just interested in the S20 because she is already familiar with that particular size of shell. For some reason she shoots her 20 gauge O/U shotgun better than her 12 gauge O/U in trap and skeet. Both guns are set up identical, so I have yet to figure it out. But, if she wants a 20, then she will have a 20 and I can keep buying "Keepsakes" without any questions

 

weird.

 

Wonder if she's recoil sensitive? Don't tell her I said that! ... I go home to Ga every now and then, and I don't need her hunting me down!

 

Given the fact that the 12ga HAS to throw a better pattern than a 20, there can be multiple things that cause a 20 to perform better.

 

Gun fit: While the shotty's may be very similar, it's possible that the guns fit slightly different. Best way to test this would be to run a multi bbl set up (borrow one from a fellow skeet or trap club member. That way the stock will be identical. There are some very subtle nuances ... for OU's there are stock benders that will twist, torque, modify your shotgun to fit your style/body ... usually VERY dedicated clay hunters are the customer here. Don't know if the site is still up, but I used to think I was going to become an avid clay pigeon shooter and spent a LOT of time reading over on shotgunreport.com TONS written on fitting there.

 

Recoil sensitivity. Best way to test this might be to drop in a release trigger. The flinch developed is usually tiny and the body is often unaware. Release triggers "trick" the body ... take it out of the protocol it developed a flinch for ... Never used one myself but I understand that you squeeze the trigger and release it to shoot. I also understand that if you shoot these long enough you can develop a flinch with them as well ... lol

 

Or you can just let her enjoy shooting the 20ga. In an experts hands it's nearly as effective ... I think if you look at avg scores of skeet shooters (who often shoot 12, 20, 28 and .410) the 20 ga scores are often only on or two birds less (out of 100 birds).

 

Last option is just psychology ... but I don't know much about that stuff

 

Go Dawgs! Can we still say that after Michael Vick ...... ?

Edited July 12, 2010 by kmoore

[going12220 125]

this is the mag that is being offered by saiga20mags.com, who is now a business member on this forum.

lots of good feedback provided by several great members of the forum helped them to make changes to the tooling / mag and get it out this far.

 

http://stores.intuitwebsites.com/hstrial-Saiga20Mags/StoreFront.bok

Saiga High Cap.wmv

[sunnybean 939]

Okay Phil I've placed my order. You'll get more of my hard earned $$$ at the end of the summer.

 

Best of luck with all your endeavors!!!