Recrowning the 308

[nsdhanoa 13]

Hey guys, I got my 21" 308 early last month and found this forum to be a great source of information regarding the conversion process etc. So far I've got the basic trigger group/pistol grip conversion done and installed an ace internal block with their fixed skeleton grip. Now I'm just waiting for my scope mount to come in and hopefully a decent scope with the next paycheck >.<

 

What I'm shooting for is a rifle that would fit the DMR role and I'd like to get about 1.5 MOA out of my gun. I'd like to recrown the barrel to an 11 degree target crown, however I plan to leave the front sight base as-is, since I live in NY and I'd rather not have a muzzle device permanently tacked on. Is there any opinion on whether the FSBs built in muzzle cap has any effect on accuracy? I'd hate to go through recrowning the barrel to find out the front of the sight base which covers part of the front of the barrel is throwing shots around. If I can get decent accuracy without messing around with the front sight base I'd be happy just leaving it alone.

 

[Azrial 1,091]

"I'd like to get about 1.5 MOA out of my gun."

 

Sorry, it is very unlikely to happen. You will read a lot about AKs that will get this kind of accuracy on the Internet, they just never show up at any public shoots where it can be verified. Re-crowning is easy and worthwhile. It is possible that it will improve accuracy. I would go with a deep tapered crown and leave the base alone. I used to do it with a drill press, an upside down brass carriage bolt and Clover Compound.

 

Just don't expect miracles.

Edited September 6, 2010 by Azrial

[nsdhanoa 13]

Just don't expect miracles.

 

 

Lol, I know better than to expect miracles. My gun appears to be a decent shooter from the factory. The factory test came in at around 2.75 MOA and truthfully if I can consistently keep it around 2 MOA I'd be thrilled. I took plenty of statistics in college so I know if I shoot enough groups eventually I'll get a perfect 3 leaf clover to post on the internet . Here's a group I shot last week at 300 yards with my MN 91/30 over iron sights. It's around 1.75" and I'm not afraid to admit that neither me nor my 65 year old mosin are going to do this again in the next 10 years . I'm not sure if I trust myself with a drill press and carriage bolt since I only have a tabletop press and no way to make sure the bore is perfectly aligned, so I think I'll wait my turn on Dinzag's crown kit and go from there.

[paprotective 362]

With my converted/restored 21" Saiga 308 (aka Janis)

 

These are my BEST 100 yard groups I could get with Tula 150gr FMJ ammo.. this is with a 3-9x40 scope.

 

 

 

Then I manage this 200 yard group.. about 3" x 4" size

 

Day 1

 

 

Day 2 about the same thing..

 

 

I don't have the 'capped' bbl end.. mine just ends and the FSB is not 'capped' over the bbl end.

 

See this post for more info on that and threading..

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=56854&view=getnewpost

 

Should have turned the CROWN whilst at it maybe.. but had $90+ tied up in Rentals and work from DinZag already..

 

My factory test sheet was 94mm (3.7 inches) so that don't really mean anything, btw....

 

Hope this helps maybe..

 

Al

[nsdhanoa 13]

Those groups are really encouraging . Looks like you've got Janis sorted out pretty well. I'm definitely going to get the crown redone. lol I don't know what it is about this gun that just begs for it to be played with. When I was growing up my Dad always gave me the impression that guns were sacred and should never be messed with out of the factory. I already have plans for Saigas I don't even own yet.

[Azrial 1,091]

Like I have said many times, these MOA (or even 1.5 MOA) Saiga .308 Rifles never seem to make it to one of the public shoots with other Saiga12 members.

 

There is a reason you never see these rifles being campaigned in high power competition, they will not do it.

 

 

[paprotective 362]

Azrial.. um. me and another member (Classy Kalish) from here are going shooting Friday afternoon.

 

I'll be brining ALL 3 of my Saiga with me.

 

Then I will have a witness to the Saiga's 'witnessed' abilities..

 

Setting up a new 3moa Bushnell Red Dot on the 762x39 and re-setting my 5.45x39 rifle with the 6x32 (I had used mount for something else)..

 

These rifles can do the work if YOU do the repeated practice..

 

I managed a horrible 'pro-marksman' on the hi-power NRA rifle simulated testing (all 4 timed stages) with the 5.45x39.. standing while shooting at a 200 yard target about 6" wide is a PITA.. I did decent shooting from kneeling at the simulated 300 yard target though.. I will admit laying on a concrete slab to shoot prone when its 91 out sucks..

 

 

 

Albert

 

 

[avatar 4]

If you've got a Kalashnikov that will hold 2moa with at least 5 rounds you've got a keeper. 1.5moa consistently while not impossible would be buy that powerball ticket now time. I wouldn't call a rifle "x" moa unless it can do it with 10 rounds minimum, consistently. 2cent

 

Edit: Handload to tune to your rifle and you might get moa. But I'm thinkin' another Powerball moment would probably be in order.

Edited September 7, 2010 by avatar

[Azrial 1,091]

Azrial.. um. me and another member (Classy Kalish) from here are going shooting Friday afternoon.

 

I'll be brining ALL 3 of my Saiga with me.

 

Then I will have a witness to the Saiga's 'witnessed' abilities..

 

Setting up a new 3moa Bushnell Red Dot on the 762x39 and re-setting my 5.45x39 rifle with the 6x32 (I had used mount for something else)..

 

These rifles can do the work if YOU do the repeated practice..

 

I managed a horrible 'pro-marksman' on the hi-power NRA rifle simulated testing (all 4 timed stages) with the 5.45x39.. standing while shooting at a 200 yard target about 6" wide is a PITA.. I did decent shooting from kneeling at the simulated 300 yard target though.. I will admit laying on a concrete slab to shoot prone when its 91 out sucks..

 

Albert

Two people, one your buddy, is not exactly what I would call "proof."

 

Let's not talk about my marksmanship, you have no idea what level of shooter I am, we are talking about the rifle. No amount of practice will improve the intrinsic accuracy of this or any rifle.

 

I will say it again, you can not cause a car to catch on fire while fueling with a cell phone, a tennis ball will not open a car door lock and these rifles will not shoot 1 -1.5 MOA. The fact is if you get one that will hold 3 MOA you should consider yourself blessed.

 

I do not care what kind of horseshit you post here.

Edited September 7, 2010 by Azrial

[paprotective 362]

Azrial.. I wasn't saying anything about your marksmanship skills. I was stating that I can shoot well most days from a front 'bag' rest. (not a sled) and have had some repeatedly decent groupings.. I personally think I still suck..

 

BTW, Never met Classy Kalish yet so this will be all new to me and him hanging out and shooting and comparing notes.

 

I posted a post a few weeks back to 'SHOW YOUR SKILLS' and got 0 responses from anyone..(ok from 1-2 people)

 

I shoot under 3" groups with my 545x39 Saiga at 100 yards with a 6x32 scope. I shoot 4-5" inch groups with my 762x39 at 100 yards. I shoot lets be fair and nice and say 2" groups at 100 yards with my 308 Saiga.. (though the pics above don't lie brother).

 

If my range allowed taping of shooting, I'd tape the whole thing but in NJ where I go mostly don't allow it at all.. (and NJ residents whom shoot don't want to be on tape)

 

I still think the rifles can do it, if YOU do your part and hold it properly. I even had some AR guys tell me 'good shooting' and 'thats an AK ?!?!'.

 

I dumped about 1000 rounds thru my 545 in the last 6 months. My 762x39 has had at least double that thru it. My 308 is still a baby with less than 350 rounds thur her.

 

I take my time and just practice and practice and practice.

 

Its at the point I'm getting bored with 200 yards with a red dot on my 762x39 for crying out loud. (so I bought a 3mod dot and sold the 6moa dot).

 

nsdh.. go with the 308 if you want. The ammo pricing is coming down abit and 308 you can get domestically also in a pinch.

 

avatar.. I agree with you.. If I can get 20 rounds into a 5" circle at 200 yards all day I am happy PERIOD..

 

I'm am all about TIGHTENING these rifles down to the smallest groups. (with off the shelf ammo)

 

 

 

Albert

[cw3sting 12]

Guys;

 

I agree, a decent crown on any rifle will do much for accuracy.

 

But, assuming a quality, straight barrel and properly functioning other components, I recommend doing one thing for sure; get some JB paste and hand lap the barrel. Just don't overdo it. A smooth, polished barrel is critical for shot-to-shot accuracy.

 

The primary thing I've noticed about the Saiga 308 in particular is the feed ramp. Just looking at the angle of the bullet trajectory into the chamber, it's got to cause accuracy killing deformities on many bullets, especially soft nosed and hollow point. When I figure out exactly where to polish and how much, I plan to. But, mucking around with the feed ramp mechanics on a weapon is something that usually can't be undone, so I'm taking my time.

 

Good luck with the accurizing. In a game of minutes (MOA), ever second counts.

[mav 459]

Give it up Al, you have been called on it, you and anyone else who states you have or ever have had any AK platform rifle that shoot less than 2MOA are bald faced liars, If you doubt this fact, look back thru the forums history, Azrial has on several occasions stated this, so it must be so.

[nsdhanoa 13]

Oops. Didn't mean to start a war here

I'm one of those people who has to try to extract the most performance out of whatever I have, so this is the way I'm going with my 308. Wherever I end up, the thing is still a blast to shoot so I'm not going to complain. About the feed ramps: the fist time I took it out I did notice an accumulation of brass dust around the area of the feed ramp/extractor and the brass gets fairly dinged up. Is this happening on the way into the chamber or on extraction? I could see this as a detriment if the brass is getting deformed on the way in. I did see a couple of accounts of people who were getting better accuracy letting the magazine feed vs individually loading each round into the chamber, so maybe this isn't as much of an issue as it seems.

[mjw308 1]

Don't worry about starting anything, just consider the source. If you have a rifle that shoots good (I am extremely pleased with mine so far, best of ~2" 8 shot @ 100 yards with cheap ammo, poor shooter, and very, very little range time, I expect much more out of this girl) then enjoy it. If some get their jollies by bashing others then lets do like we did in school and ignore them.

I'm not saying that I believe everything that I hear on the Net, but seeing what my rifle does with me and cheap ammo I know it will do much better, or maybe I just missed my day to buy those powerball tickets.

My best grouping was with a scoped rifle and from a lead sled rest (with no weight, it kept moving around). If using stock iron sights then yes don't expect 2MOA groups with 4-6MOA sights.

Oh yeah my rifle is virgin, with cruddy trigger. I have the parts to convert it, but once I saw it shoot so good I decided to keep it stock for a while and work on my shooting and then ammo choices, just so I could show people what could be done with a bone stock rifle, as many people I know don't want to work on a rifle, they just want to pick it up and hunt with it a few times a year.

 

Matt

Edited September 9, 2010 by matt308

[paprotective 362]

no worries folks..

 

It does seem like more people are shooting better these days with the Saiga as I see a few poster(s) came in and verified it for me..

 

I liked the fact that with my old 6MOA red dot the 8" shootNc looses its whole upper half at 100 yards ALL THE TIME while I'm STANDING..

 

I'd imagine withe 3MOA Red Dot I have coming in that will be CUT DOWN to 3-4" groups also..

 

I like POINT-N-SHOOT with the Red Dot.. its a no brainer and I can just pick and choose my PAPER targets..

 

 

 

Al

[Azrial 1,091]

Give it up Al, you have been called on it, you and anyone else who states you have or ever have had any AK platform rifle that shoot less than 2MOA are bald faced liars, If you doubt this fact, look back thru the forums history, Azrial has on several occasions stated this, so it must be so.

True.

 

I say none of this to hurt feelings, but this lie has been told here before. I defy any of the naysayers to try and get one of the big name builders to build you a battle field serviceable AK with 1-1.5 MOA accuracy, guaranteed. That is not what AK's were intended for and spreading this stupid lie just makes folks unhappy with a perfectly serviceable rifle with acceptable battle field accuracy. I have no problem with folks trying to make their rifles shoot better, I have done a few small things myself. For the truly confused please understand, this is just fantasy talk, like guys telling you with a few simple tweaks that their VW Rabbit will blow away a Porsche 911 GT2 RS... It will never happen.

 

The Soviet SVD would do well to maintain 5 MOA. The standard AKM is lucky with modern manufacture to stay within 4. There may be some exceptional guns that will do better, but no one here has ever seen, fired or owned a 1-1.5 MOA standard AK and never will. Anything that would come close would bear only a passing resemblance to what we would call an "AK."

 

You never see one of the rifles winning in high power because they just won't do it. You never see anyone show up at the Saiga shoots and shoot these kind of groups, with repeatability. I could care less about some random wonder group that you shot once and posted here as an example of what your rifle will do every time. There are plenty of people here that know better.

 

To the OP you act like the factory crown was done with a hacksaw and that through the miracle of re-crowning you will tighten up the groups by 50% or better. It will never happen. Honestly, have you ever personally re-crowned a rifle in your life? I am not trying to tell you not to try, I admire your intent, but the Russians that made this rifle knew a little bit about how to crown one. Even with all the TLC that I am sure that you intend to help on it, I would doubt that your efforts will seriously improve on the factory's! But please give it a try and report back!

 

Matt308, good advice, consider the source indeed, and who the fuck were you again?

[SaigaNoobie 66]

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=57044

 

I really don't care if you believe it or not. If I hadn't done it, I wouldn't believe it.

 

Also, my "Spotter" was a stranger I had just met with a Rem 700 all tactical'd up for "long range" shooting....

[paprotective 362]

Well I have 2 'vollies' at 200 yards with the same results of both. No where close to as tight as SN13..

 

Its usually shot #4 that opens the group up I notice with these Saiga's..

 

If I can stay under 3 moa at 200 yards I'd be still happy. (I want consistent 2MOA though)

 

Of course if your shooting game or man you may only get 1 shot

 

I read a military manual that says marksman heat the bbl by firing a few rounds then going into 'snipe' territory..

 

Going to 10 shots at 200 yards and then repeat Friday.. I will then measure/photo/post in my Friday thread I started.

 

Why do we use 3 shots anyway to measure MOA ?? usually 4-5 or 8 or 10 would be a better measurement of skills (with repeating skill also).

 

off topic.. buts it happening in this post folks.

 

 

Al

Edited September 9, 2010 by YWHIC

[mav 459]

Give it up Al, you have been called on it, you and anyone else who states you have or ever have had any AK platform rifle that shoot less than 2MOA are bald faced liars, If you doubt this fact, look back thru the forums history, Azrial has on several occasions stated this, so it must be so.

True.

 

I say none of this to hurt feelings, but this lie has been told here before. I defy any of the naysayers to try and get one of the big name builders to build you a battle field serviceable AK with 1-1.5 MOA accuracy, guaranteed. That is not what AK's were intended for and spreading this stupid lie just makes folks unhappy with a perfectly serviceable rifle with acceptable battle field accuracy. I have no problem with folks trying to make their rifles shoot better, I have done a few small things myself. For the truly confused please understand, this is just fantasy talk, like guys telling you with a few simple tweaks that their VW Rabbit will blow away a Porsche 911 GT2 RS... It will never happen.

 

The Soviet SVD would do well to maintain 5 MOA. The standard AKM is lucky with modern manufacture to stay within 4. There may be some exceptional guns that will do better, but no one here has ever seen, fired or owned a 1-1.5 MOA standard AK and never will. Anything that would come close would bear only a passing resemblance to what we would call an "AK."

 

You never see one of the rifles winning in high power because they just won't do it. You never see anyone show up at the Saiga shoots and shoot these kind of groups, with repeatability. I could care less about some random wonder group that you shot once and posted here as an example of what your rifle will do every time. There are plenty of people here that know better.

 

To the OP you act like the factory crown was done with a hacksaw and that through the miracle of re-crowning you will tighten up the groups by 50% or better. It will never happen. Honestly, have you ever personally re-crowned a rifle in your life? I am not trying to tell you not to try, I admire your intent, but the Russians that made this rifle knew a little bit about how to crown one. Even with all the TLC that I am sure that you intend to help on it, I would doubt that your efforts will seriously improve on the factory's! But please give it a try and report back!

 

Matt308, good advice, consider the source indeed, and who the fuck were you again?

 

 

 

 

 

To me the most insulting thing you can do is call someone a liar, and you do it often, without any clue of what you speak. You dont know how accurate my rifle is, or YWHIC's or AKSarben's or any of the other number of members you have insulted, BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T FIRED THEM!!! To continue to be so pompous as to insist that we are liars, just proves what an ignorant ass you are. Just because you say something does not make it fact, no matter how many times you say it over and over, your just repeating bullshit.

[jrmock 7]

My Saiga 7.62x39 seems to be capable of 1-1.5" MOA from a bench with good weather. I had a thread on this back in February:

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=51007&st=0&p=475847entry475847

 

That was just shooting Brown Bear HPs. The group opened up past 100 yards but I blame some of that on my scope, 4X, and some on me getting tired. So it is possible to have a decently accurate Saiga.

 

jrmock

[Azrial 1,091]

To me the most insulting thing you can do is call someone a liar, and you do it often, without any clue of what you speak. You dont know how accurate my rifle is, or YWHIC's or AKSarben's or any of the other number of members you have insulted, BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T FIRED THEM!!! To continue to be so pompous as to insist that we are liars, just proves what an ignorant ass you are. Just because you say something does not make it fact, no matter how many times you say it over and over, your just repeating bullshit.

 

Mav, lets get something straight. I don't gave a damn how insulted you are. I have shot more of these rifles then I care to admit and I know what they will do. I also shot NRA High Power for years and was quite competitive doing so. I know what works and what it takes to build a semiautomatic service rifle that will shoot these kind of groups. I do not have to shoot every single AK on the planet to make the statement that I have. These board is also full of members that have wrote in to complain/admit that they were not getting near this level of accuracy and wanted to know why. I have wrote what I have not to criticize or insult those that would have us believe that they possess some kind of miracle AK, I have wrote it as a warning to others to not expect these kind of results.

 

The level of shooter that you are is very evident by your posts, you are a noob and it shows But since a line must be drawn in the sand, the rifle will not do it and you are a bald faced liar. Now come to a big Saiga event with at several regular Saiga-12 board members in attendance, not some 2 post wonder like Matt308, and shoot three 3 shot 1.5" inch groups out of 5, at 100 yards and I will apologize to you here.

 

I notice that YWHIC never claims to have a < 1.5 MOA Saiga, he simply and honestly states that he shot a very small group once and his average group is larger. Mav, is that your problem, you believe that 1 small random group proves that your rifle is this accurate? Like I said, a pretentious noob.

 

To anyone else offended, believe what you like, but there are plenty of gunsmiths with far more ability then I who will tell you that you are barking up the wrong tree to try and build a 1.5 MOA or less rifle out of any AK.

 

BTW, as you scroll down this page we prove what a miserable little piece of roach shit you are as you try to give me bad rep on every post in this thread, I always suspected that it was you doing this and this proves it. Grow up and start acting like a man when you have a disagreement with someone.

[paprotective 362]

Azrial.. thank you (of sorts)..

 

I shoot from a Caldwell 'bag' front rest and hold the rear with my hand. I can shoot sub 2" 3-4 shot groups at 100 yards with my 545x39 then wait and repeat within a few minutes.. Thats why I call my 545 my little 'sniper'.

 

I don't claim MOA crap, I post what I shoot and thats it... I measure the groups and thats it.

 

If I shoot good or bad I post it. I can shoot well/decent with all my Saiga's.

 

I have a role for each rifle I have.

 

I like shooting 20-60 rounds into a 6" or so circle from 100 yards STANDING with my 762x39 Saiga. Its easy as pie.

 

These are MBR rifles and thats it.. HOWEVER, with practice and patience each person can do better than that..

 

NEWBIES, don't expect miracles BUT the target will be DOA at XXX yards with NO WORRIES..

 

mav is not a liar. he is pointing out the fact you call everyone else liars that says they do well.

 

show us your targets Azrial... what can YOU DO with your Saiga???

 

Come on... be a sport...

 

Al

[mav 459]

To me the most insulting thing you can do is call someone a liar, and you do it often, without any clue of what you speak. You dont know how accurate my rifle is, or YWHIC's or AKSarben's or any of the other number of members you have insulted, BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T FIRED THEM!!! To continue to be so pompous as to insist that we are liars, just proves what an ignorant ass you are. Just because you say something does not make it fact, no matter how many times you say it over and over, your just repeating bullshit.

 

Mav, lets get something straight. I don't gave a damn how insulted you are.

 

Thats obvious to me and everyone else you have mistakenly called a liar over the years.

 

 

 

The level of shooter that you are is very evident by your posts, you are a noob and it shows But since a line must be drawn in the sand, the rifle will not do it and you are a bald faced liar.

 

 

What is evident by my post is that I am not impressed by your pompous bullshit, and that is what it is.

 

 

Now come to a big Saiga event with at several regular Saiga-12 board members in attendance, not some 2 post wonder like Matt308, and shoot three 3 shot 1.5" inch groups out of 5, at 100 yards and I will apologize to you here.

 

 

Negative, I will not show up at any event you attend, I have a really hard time restraining myself around pompous asses, and they tend to throw people in jail for knocking out cops, even off duty ones.

 

Mav, is that your problem, you believe that 1 small random group proves that your rifle is this accurate? Like I said, a pretentious noob.

Nope, one group doesn't amount to shit, but repeated groups over and over are not flukes, mine or anyone else.

 

To anyone else offended, believe what you like, but there are plenty of gunsmiths with far more ability then I who will tell you that you are barking up the wrong tree to try and build a 1.5 MOA or less rifle out of any AK.

 

And there are plenty more who will tell you not to bother believing anything spouted by a idiot talking out his ass.

 

 

BTW, as you scroll down this page we prove what a miserable little piece of roach shit you are as you try to give me bad rep on every post in this thread, I always suspected that it was you doing this and this proves it. Grow up and start acting like a man when you have a disagreement with someone.

 

 

 

I give you a -1 when you deserve it by calling honest people liars. I have +1'ed you on several occasions, but on this subject, I will always openly name you the pompous ass that you are in regards to the matter at hand. That doesn't make me "roach shit" it makes me honorable, something you clearly have no conception of.

 

 

 

Edit: Do you own stock in Armalite and DPMS?

Edited September 10, 2010 by mav

[cbienlein 0]

So hows that recrowning coming along

[paprotective 362]

well Mav.. I'm lying again..

 

I managed 2 5 shot groups at 200 yards that were 1 3/4" x 1 1/2" and then pulled a 2 3/4" by 2 1/4" for 5 shots:killer:

 

I have the MAGIC 308 Saiga.. I think these are both 1 MOA (or less) for 200 yard distances.. I dunno i don't get into MOA things..

 

I wish I had AKSarben's handloads I'd be even more-awesome..

 

 

Going back tommorrow or Sunday to repeat this MAGIC trick for 4-5 more times I hope..

 

 

 

Albert

[nsdhanoa 13]

Grats on the magical AK Al

What kind of ammo are you shooting there?

 

The recrowning is going to have to wait for at least a few weeks for me. First comes some decent glass then comes paying for my M$ certification testing >.< then I'll drop the FSB and see what's hiding under there to work with.

[paprotective 362]

Its the $5 Tula 150gr FMJ ammo. Its at AIM surplus for a limited time.

 

Stuff has been shooting TIGHT since I started running it about a month ago or so..

 

 

Al

[cw3sting 12]

Al;

 

awesome!

 

So, a picture is beginnging to develop here.

 

The "inaccuracy" of the Ak platform myth originated with the 7x26x39 rifle.

 

Let's face it. Outside of the fact that the cartridge itself is not considered to be an "accurate" design to begin with, who produces loads or bullets that are worth a flip?

 

But, enter the .223 and .308 Saiga. These are cartridges that are well known for the inherent accuracy

 

Who's to say what "MOA" a Saiga can do? Personally, I have found problems with every military style weapon I have ever fired/owned. Those with tight tolerances have a tendency to jam, those that are loser are judged to be "inaccurate".

 

Gunsmiths? As a group, you can't find a more talented bunch. But, judging on an individual basis, I find many to be snobs. They usually only want to work on high dollar bolt actions, or "impressive" military actions. In don't know of any in my area who would take threading my Saiga seriously without looking down on me. I spent my prime 'college attending years' in Reagan's 600 ship Navy. I don't need that attitude.

 

Across the populous, I have found that more often civilians are politically (sometimes very emotionally) opposed to a Russian built weapons, where veterans have no problem with the origin of the weapon.

 

Therein lies the problem. Can a person divorce him/herself from "politics" and focus on the capabilities of the platform itself?

 

Personally, I believe that the Saiga .308 architecture itself (depending on cartridge) is capable of 1.0-1.5 MOA repeatable accuracy. Like other forums before this, many users will prove this time and time again. Without a barrel change and other serious surgery, the Saiga probably can't reliably surpass 1.0 MOA. But, my experience so far has led me to believe that both the .223 and .308 are on the average 1.5-2.0 MOA, sometimes 1.0.

 

Will these proofs be certified at sponsored competitions? Probably not. After all, I neither have the time, nor inclination, to join a club, sign up, follow the rules, and work my way into a "sanctioned" event so that some "suit" can make my shooting record "official". Because of the nature of the "AK" architecture" mentality, most others will probably not take this course either. After all, those who chose to shoot the Saiga are looking for the SHTF weapon they can afford (cost of weapon plus tons of ammo = cost of one fancy shootin' piece).. These are the people who are not paranoid, but who understand the potential of a social breakdown.

 

What happened to the unarmed in Katrina? What if devastation from Ike had lasted another 12 weeks? What if solar flares destroy 75% of the electric grid? What if the super-volcano Yellowstone goes 'boom'.

 

Like all of these potential disasters, those who consider the potential of a situation are not 'paranoid' and prepare for the possibility are not paranoid, no more than the driver who carries a window breaking tool or fire extinguisher in their car.

 

You see, life is a survival game. Some people believe they can call 911 no matter what happens. Other believe that the only one they can rely on is him/herself.

 

So, to get back to the thread, Newbie, I wouldn't worry about crowning the Saiga until you decide to shorten the barrel length.

 

But, rest assured, you have a time proven and tested weapons platform that will serve you well with iron sight or scope at least within 300 yards. It will not jam and will fire reliably (with good old steel cased Russian ammo) for thousands of rounds. Your ability and its capability will potentially defend you and your loved ones in a myriad of potential life threatening situations. Hopefully, it will merely serve as a great source of amusement for years to come.

 

Just be safe in your endeavors and never harm an innocent.

 

P.S. It was Margarita night!

[Azrial 1,091]

Negative, I will not show up at any event you attend, I have a really hard time restraining myself around pompous asses, and they tend to throw people in jail for knocking out cops, even off duty ones.

Mav, if you think that you have what it takes to knock me out, you are more then welcome to try. I would be happy to swap liability release wavers with you any day. But there is no real danger of this happening, should we ever meet in person the only thing you will be doing is babbling nervously about the weather while standing in a puddle of your own warm piss.

 

You are just another "know nothing" that was attracted to firearms by recent politics, you have no idea what you are talking about, but you like to hear your head roar. Go back to your job at the 7-11 restocking Kools and King Cobra Malt liquor and leave this discussion to people that know what they are talking about. I have no problem with you giving bad rep to something that I say that you disagree with, I have a problem with the way you act like a child going down the page in a little fit and trying to hit every post. What are you, some kind of hysterical fag having a tantrum? How about trying to act like a man for a change? I can have a disagreement with you, even a heated one, without the need for this kind of petulant bullshit.

 

If you claim that your factory barreled semi-auto Saiga, of any caliber, will shoot 1-1.5 MOA with just the barrel recrowned, you are a bald faced liar and no one that knows anything about rifles and what it takes to meet that level of accuracy will believe you. The majority of these posts do not even address ammo, which is one of the critical factors in accurizeing any rifle. Hell you have folks here making these wild claims for 7.62x39 and bargain basement ammo. It will not happen.

 

The very things that make an AK as reliable as it is, tend to also make it less accurate. All semiautomatic service rifles address this compromise, the AK design simply takes reliability to the extreme, which has a logical end result. My FAL is more accurate then most Saigas, it is less reliable, but not by much. My Custom M1A goes much father in the accuracy direction. Guess what, that makes it less reliable! I am thninking of building a serious AR-10, I worry that it will be reliable enough for law enforcement use, which is less demanding then that of the militray. Frankly, when the chips are down I tent to trust my Custom Remington PSS for more then any semiauto!

 

YWHIC, I have been shooting since I was 12 and I have honestly never bothered to photograph a group I have shot in my life. I do have a piece of the target I shot at a Surefire Suppressor demo using an scoped Armalite AR-10 with a can at 161 measured yards. I will look for it, however I fail to see where it would tend to prove or disprove this discussion.

 

To anyone reading this thread and considering buying one of these rifles with the thought that it will shoot less then 2 MOA, save your money. There is a reason you will never see this rifle being used in NRA High Power Rifle Competition, it will not shoot with the real competitors. It is technically a service rifle, however no one has even taken on the fool's errand to try and get an AK approved that I know of! The Saiga is a fine rifle, for what it is.

 

This discussion is little more then a circle jerk by guys that want to pretend that the AK is something that it is not, and not to be taken seriously.

[mav 459]

To put it quite simply, you are wrong on every count. I grew up around firearms also, and was really "into" them before Clinton took office. You can continue to call my a liar, it doesn't make you right, it makes you a fucking idiot, and proves to everyone reading that you are a know nothing jerkoff, because you keep deeming to know things about every AK ever built, and you just dont.

 

As far as your waver, if its signed by you, I know its not worth the paper its wrote on, so no thanks.

 

I am more than willing to leave this discussion to people that know what their talking about, but you keep talking, and you flat out dont know what your talking about.

 

I -1'd you on every post in that thread, because you were wrong in every post, had you made a post that wasn't outright bullshit, I would not have negged it.

 

For the record, I am not a LIAR, I am not sure if you are or not, but by continuing to state as fact what you know nothing about, you prove yourself very ignorant at least.

 

 

Edit: I just read it again. "Petulant bullshit", guess what dumbass, you started the petulant bullshit when you called me and everyone else a liar, simply because we proved your dipshit opinion wrong.

Edited September 11, 2010 by mav