Case dent

[Vais01 3]

Yes before you say it I do know there is an existing thread but I may have a solution.

 

I have ordered a new Izhmash top cover and if it fits I will be altering it to correct the dented cases.

 

I have noticed that the ejection port on the Saigas are all the same size and geometry. The idea I have will be to cut back on the ejection port just enough to help the longer case eject without hitting the edge of the ejection port.

 

I will do my best to keep everyone up to date.

[kresk 10,063]

I am confused as your member name is 7.62x39 and your post is in the Saiga .223 section. Can you clarify which rifle you are talking about please so it can be placed in the proper area of the forum?

[Vais01 3]

I am confused as your topic title is 7.62x39 and your post is in the Saiga .223 section. Can you clarify which rifle you are talking about please so it can be placed in the proper area of the forum?

Strange it did that it is for the .223 Saiga.

 

I never did type 7.62x39 in the topic title.

[kresk 10,063]

I am confused as your topic title is 7.62x39 and your post is in the Saiga .223 section. Can you clarify which rifle you are talking about please so it can be placed in the proper area of the forum?

Strange it did that it is for the .223 Saiga.

 

I never did type 7.62x39 in the topic title.

So the topic will remain here in the .223 section--think that's where some of the confusion was, with your forum name being 7.62x39.

[Vais01 3]

I am confused as your topic title is 7.62x39 and your post is in the Saiga .223 section. Can you clarify which rifle you are talking about please so it can be placed in the proper area of the forum?

Strange it did that it is for the .223 Saiga.

 

I never did type 7.62x39 in the topic title.

So the topic will remain here in the .223 section--think that's where some of the confusion was, with your forum name being 7.62x39.

 

It happens.

[liberty -r- death 1,445]

Let us know for sure. Would love to be able to reload my brass out of the saiga. The dog leg top cover I'm considering may resolve the issue now that I think about it.

[Vais01 3]

Ok guys sorry for the wait.

Looks like the band-aid to the problem is a modded top cover still in the works but I got the idea to go look at my first fired cases and I got a shock...NO DENT.

So, when the the Saiga was new the recoil spring was stiffer and now it has settled. When it was new it would just kiss the brass and now in its settled stage it will severely dent even the steel cases.

 

So I bet if the carrier was moving slower just by a little there would be no case dent. If I slowed the carrier and modified the top cover I bet it would never dent cases again.

[Vais01 3]

I may be able to increase the spring tension by keeping the spring compressed about 1/2" that could be done under the bolt carrier or near the recoil buffer.

 

Could be something to try.

 

Does anyone know what the spring rate for the .223 Saiga? pounds of pressure for 1 inch of compression will work.

[Vais01 3]

Interesting discovery today. It seems that the dent does not happen consistently. The first 10 shots were just kissed by the top cover but as the shooting went on the dent got worse.

I have the custom top cover design done now time to start working on it. Let yall in on the little project as I am working on it.

[mancat 2,368]

A ribbed dust cover will also "fix" this issue for the most part with no mods. Ribbed dust covers are somewhat beveled or folded inward at the location where the brass strikes, whereas the Saiga cover is just a hard edge there. The brass still may deform, but it won't be the same deep gash that is imprinted on brass by the Saiga cover.

[calvin118 2]

What about the case heads? From what I understand, the .223 bolts 'stamp' the case heads and make it very difficult to remove and replace primers. I would get a Saiga .223 in a heartbeat if I could reload for it without killing my brass.

[mancat 2,368]

From what I have read on this and other forums, the case imprint dent doesn't affect reloading. If you look at the cases, it's not even as deep as the headstamping of the case.

 

If you think this is a big deal, don't shoot XM193 or XM855. They all have converted primer pockets and look twice as terrible as a Saiga .223-cycled case. They shoot just fine though.

Edited December 13, 2011 by mancat

[Vais01 3]

A ribbed dust cover will also "fix" this issue for the most part with no mods. Ribbed dust covers are somewhat beveled or folded inward at the location where the brass strikes, whereas the Saiga cover is just a hard edge there. The brass still may deform, but it won't be the same deep gash that is imprinted on brass by the Saiga cover.

 

Yes it will to an extent I borrowed a guys dust cover off of his 74 and it still dents the cases enough to reduce the case capacity. Plus they do not fit as tight as the factory style dust cover so modding is a must.

 

What about the case heads? From what I understand, the .223 bolts 'stamp' the case heads and make it very difficult to remove and replace primers. I would get a Saiga .223 in a heartbeat if I could reload for it without killing my brass.

 

Not quite with the Lee reloding dies they are not difficult to remove. I have already removed a few primers from various brass to see how difficult it would be.

[Vais01 3]

From what I have read on this and other forums, the case imprint dent doesn't affect reloading. If you look at the cases, it's not even as deep as the headstamping of the case.

 

If you think this is a big deal, don't shoot XM193 or XM855. They all have converted primer pockets and look twice as terrible as a Saiga .223-cycled case. They shoot just fine though.

 

Well that just depends on how deep the dent is. On mine they are very deep. Almost .200" and the affect the case capacity by 4gr of powder. That is way too much for such a small case and will raise pressures to in safe levels.

As for XM 855's made by Olin they are too dangerous for use in my rifle this weekend I shot some with very dangerous and scary results. The pressure was so high on some that the bolt locked open with several failure to feeds. One of the bullets jammed itself in the magazine and pushed the bullet against the steel reinforcement and pushed the bullet back about 1/4" the Bulgarian circle 10 mag held strong and just had a scratch.

Lake City for both XM series ammo types work flawlessly and even those do not push the primer pockets in that deep. Standard American Eagle brass is way softer on the case head compared to the military types.

[Vais01 3]

A stronger main spring would fix the issue or a modded dust cover. The dust cover design has been made and I just need to use a grinder to remove the material faster. The next part I have to install a new case deflector made out of duron or some type of hard rubber. I have a way to cut and form it to whatever shape I'd like. I will do my best to post pictures of the modified version and the standard version with some instructions on how to do the mod after it has been perfected.

[Vais01 3]

Original top cover.

 

 

 

 

Custom modified top cover stage 1.

 

 

 

Comparison photo.

Edited December 20, 2011 by 7.62x39mm

[Vais01 3]

Guys sorry but I can not get the photo to rotate.

 

Here is the factory cover mounted...

 

 

and the custom modified stage 1 top cover mounted.

 

Edited December 20, 2011 by 7.62x39mm

[Vais01 3]

Ok did a hand feed and eject test and found that the modified top cover allows the cases to eject more to the rear than the factory top cover. It looks like the empty cases will clear most of the top cover before coming into contact with the top cover.

Will post pictures of the empty cases after my shoot test on my Christmas vacation.

Edited December 21, 2011 by 7.62x39mm

[tokinshitload 12]

Shoot the modified gun left handed to see if the dust cover mod ejects to far to the rear for the south paws out there.

[Vais01 3]

Shoot the modified gun left handed to see if the dust cover mod ejects to far to the rear for the south paws out there.

 

It does eject further to the rear but thats no problem as of yet since the brass still goes forward due to the design of the rifle. Also since I will be building a deflector to make sure all empty brass is ejected away from the shooter being pelted with brass will not be a problem.

[Vais01 3]

Well my brass is in the truck but we have an 83% success rate. Out of 6 shots 5 cases were salvageable all with the AK kiss and the one with a dent that was smaller but still not relaodable.

Going to pull the opening back another 1/8" and keep the same angle and retry if by new years.

Ammo used was Federal American eagle 55gr commercially loaded ammo and the other Barnaul 55gr ammo the steel was just kissed and so was 2 of the brass cases.

Edited December 25, 2011 by 7.62x39mm

[vulcan16 971]

Both of my 09 223's don't have the dreaded case kiss dent. The 08 model that was sold did.

Edited December 25, 2011 by Jetmech

[Vais01 3]

Both of my 09 223's don't have the dreaded case kiss dent. The 08 model that was sold did.

Mine did not for a long time but after the 500 round mark it just got worse and worse.

Mine also is an 09 version 3.

I think the spring has settled but I am working on the cover project first then I will attempt a spring swap.

[vulcan16 971]

Both of my 09 223's don't have the dreaded case kiss dent. The 08 model that was sold did.

Mine did not for a long time but after the 500 round mark it just got worse and worse.

Mine also is an 09 version 3.

I think the spring has settled but I am working on the cover project first then I will attempt a spring swap.

Keep us informed if the spring swap/dust cover mod resolves the case dent problems.

[Vais01 3]

Wolff extra power spring on the way.

Case dents are less but I believe one of the causes of the dent is that the rifle is over gased for general shooting. I think this is done to allow increased reliability under harsh conditions. For most of us shooters that reload our version of reliability is no missfeed, failure to feed, failure to eject or failure to fire without destroying spent brass.

 

 

 

[liberty -r- death 1,445]

Wolff extra power spring on the way.

Case dents are less but I believe one of the causes of the dent is that the rifle is over gased for general shooting. I think this is done to allow increased reliability under harsh conditions. For most of us shooters that reload our version of reliability is no missfeed, failure to feed, failure to eject or failure to fire without destroying spent brass.

 

The only complaint I have about my Saiga is the brass being so beat up. If the issue was resolved I would have no complaints. Keep the updates coming. Thanks for all the work going into this.

[Vais01 3]

Wolff extra power spring on the way.

Case dents are less but I believe one of the causes of the dent is that the rifle is over gased for general shooting. I think this is done to allow increased reliability under harsh conditions. For most of us shooters that reload our version of reliability is no missfeed, failure to feed, failure to eject or failure to fire without destroying spent brass.

 

The only complaint I have about my Saiga is the brass being so beat up. If the issue was resolved I would have no complaints. Keep the updates coming. Thanks for all the work going into this.

 

I will test the new spring with the factory dust cover and my stage 1 dust cover. I will keep you guys posted on my results.

 

Some time within a month I will be trying another modification, this one will be done to the gas tube. I will be ordering another gas tube and modifying the gas porting on the tube. That will be an extensive modification as well as a write up.

[Vais01 3]

Well guys new spring from Wolff Gunsprings ordered through Brownells it is 15% stiffer according to their web site. It feels much stiffer than the factory spring and it should slow the bolt speed down and should help prevent the brass from turning into a banana. My modified top cover has been altered even more and during hand feeding and extraction testing it will consistently eject the brass in the same location as it would without the top cover this is stage two.

When I reinstalled the factory top cover the brass ejection was inconsistent and would launch the brass in a 4 foot area of randomness.

 

So far these are hand feed, extraction and ejection tests. I will be doing shooting testing next Saturday if all goes well.

[Vais01 3]

Well here is the update. 45% of my brass was salvageable. 14 out of 31 pieces of brass are ok to reload. It seems my next step will be the final step. I will have to open up the ejection port on the dust cover even more. I will post a picture of the next alteration to the dust cover.

Also the 15% stronger spring is a big increase my groups shifted over 6" higher than what they used to be. 5.56 loads seem to cycle much easier compared to the heavy hit I normally feel on my buffer. It seems there is a velocity increase with all ammo no chronograph data to support it yet but I will try to get some data soon.

[liberty -r- death 1,445]

Wonder if the brass that's no good for reloading is hitting the charging handle. I have shot mine with out the dust cover and get the kiss from the charging handle with the cover off. I have been thinking about getting a bolt on cover for mine to see if it helps. May try a piece of soft plastic tube first.