Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 http://www.desertsharpshooters.com/manuals/incredload.pdf by Randolph Constantine "When you get a new rifle or have an old one re-barreled, or do anything else likely to change the barrel vibration characteristics, such as hang a Bloop tube on it, or shorten it, or usually ''developing" a load for it becomes necessary. Another thing that will require you to develop new Loads is changing over to moly-coated bullets, like I did this past year to compete in High-power. To develop a new load usually means, to find something pretty close to the most accurate load for the rifle, unless you're considering some other really special application. Unless you need bullets to fly supersonic at 1000 Yards. or enough momentum to stop a charging Cape Buffalo, muzzle velocity usually takes a back seat to accuracy. To find a load that will shoot a Buffalo accurately at 20 yards is not hard to do. But to find a load for the .308 that will still be supersonic at 1000 yards and also shoot accurately at that distance the same time can be a bit of a problem. However, it is possible. The method described here can help." I am currently using this method and recommend folks look into it if they haven't already. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1mile50 102 Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Groups shot at 300 yards don't mean squat at 1000. Accurate loads for 1000 yards demand a low extreme velocity spread. 10 fps or less. Or, you get vertical stringing. That takes work, and part of the equation is a high load density which gives consistent burn. Also, higher velocities mean shorter transit time from rifle to target (less environmental influence) and bullet B.C.s tend to range higher at higher velocities. This is only part of what I did not see in this article. My experience has been that interpreting ladder tests on a target is a waste of time. It's all happening at the chrono. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted February 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Then publish your method I am sure we would all benefit from your experiences. Maybe you can talk me into getting a chrono where all others have failed. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1mile50 102 Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 Long range accurate rifle shooting is a complex, multifaceted endeavor. I can't condense it into an article. I can and am willing to engage in a discussion on the subject. Load development is but one facet. If the other facets are not squared away, starting with the basics, load development will be a waste of time. I don't believe in Fucking around, especially where firearms are concerned. 1rst, and I know it goes without saying, don't believe everything you read, and that is from me included. There are many items that are requirements, as is there are many operations that are procedure. But your sojourn will be your own, and you will do some things differently than other shooters who are just as good as you. The real excitement here is when you have discovered something and find out later that a world class shooter agrees with you about it. I have had this happen. Tom Sarver set this 1000 yard world record a while back. http://goneballistic.info/sarvertargetrecord.gif I don't know exactly how he did it, but I can guarantee that his velocity spread was very low. You must start with a proper shooting technique. Video tape yourself at the range while shooting and review the video. Poor technique will give poor, inconsistent results. On a video, poor technique will become very obvious. Next, a good rifle, better optics, & a rock solid mount for those optics. This is a Savage Model 10 FLP with a flat top receiver that I bought 13 or 14 years ago. http://goneballistic.info/FLP10FT.jpg http://goneballistic.info/FLP10FT-2.jpg IMHO, Savage is the very best value for an out of the box accurate rifle. This rifle does have some aftermarket on it, but no real modifications. It is wearing a Choate Machine & Tool stock and I have installed a Timney trigger, adjusted to a sweet 1#. This rifle is topped with a Leupold 8.5 - 25x 50 LR VXIII, Target dot. The base is a Night Force 20 minute, 2 piece. The rings are what I consider to be the very best value in rings, Burris Xtreme High. The stock allen cap screws are torqued to 50 inch pounds. The ring rail clamp bolts are torqued to 65 inch pounds. The ring torx cap screws are torqued to 15 inch pounds. When I develop loads for this rifle, I do not shot at a target. I shot at a clod or such on the berm at 1017 yards. 5 shots per load. When I get home I interpret the data on my chrono tape. Loads near the maximum with low velocity spreads are marked, and further development (with a little hair splitting) is done, this time on paper. The choice load is then tested again, over my chrono, to verify. The only consumer grade Chrono, as far as I'm concerned, is the Oehler Model 35P But you say, "That is not the type of rifle for my needs." Exactly. I don't know what you are loading for, to do what? It makes a difference I have a few rifles, some are very accurate. But very different rifles, all the same. http://goneballistic.info/LR-308.jpg I just bought this Savage today. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=272247946 I have a Varmint Contour SS barrel on order chambered in 300 BLK. http://www.gunshack.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=192 I am going to use this scope base http://www.kenfarrell.com/SAV-RTS-B-1-40.html The scope has 95 minutes total elevation travel. This combination will give me almost 90 minutes of elevation. This rifle will be setup for accurate subsonic suppressed or supersonic shooting, up to 600 yards. Different rifles, very different projects. I use the same method as describe above for developing match loads. I'm no Tom Sarver, but I have never not won something over the last 5 years and sometimes I get 1rst Place. http://goneballistic.info/Cool%20Acres.jpg http://goneballistic.info/BGAViper.jpg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted February 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 (edited) Well the shooting lesson was kind of much but thanks. I cannot see the type of rifle being any kind of factor as concerns the method used to develop a load. Ok so you eliminate the 50 cent target and replace it with a $350 chronograph. There is a lot to be said for measuring the variable directly (velocity) and not dealing with a lot of variables in finding the right band of loading. But this assumes there is no other conditions to be considered like barrel harmonics or recoil effects. Either way you end up at a target in the end. Edited February 5, 2012 by Rhodes1968 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1mile50 102 Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 (edited) Rhoades, Hunting bullets have different profiles. Loading for hunting has different expectations, different requirements. Match bullets are differing in nature, too. They like different chambers, different bullet jumps. Not to mention tight neck chambers, bore rider chambers, or hybrids. The pressure wave of the combustion generates the vibration of the barrel. If the wave is nearly identical each time, so will be the vibration.~ Getting extreme velocity spread low is very hard. It requires a lot of work to get it right. Running back and forth to a target is a waste of time. I've been there. Recoil is going to happen. The "effect" of recoil on the performance of the rifle is how well you handle it, from initially addressing the rifle, to follow thru.. Hence my suggestion to video tape. Lead sleds and such are useless for load development, for that very reason. They negate the effects of recoil to such an extent that the rifle is no longer being shot in a real world environment. Rest easy, no more lessons. Good shooting! Edited February 5, 2012 by 1mile50 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott Kenny 144 Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 As another voice here, my seriously-competitive shooting buddy (occasional Nationals competitor) uses a chronograph all the time for load development. For his .40, he loads as light as he can and still consistently get Major power. For the .223, he loaded for consistent flight, which meant a fairly small variation in velocity to him. Of course, he scares the crud out of the Range guys with that load, when it blew through a pistol-rated dueling tree at 250 yards. It's something like 26.5 grains of Varget behind a 60gr(?) Ballistic Tip, which hits about 3500fps in his rifle (24 barrel is good for speed!). But he has another load that he tweaked to shoot to the same point of aim as the ballistic tips at 100 yards. I've borrowed his chrony (Think he won an Oehler at one competition...) for my PSL, and the factory ammo was all over the place, velocity-wise. Soon as I can get the gun to stop beating up cases, I'm going to have to start reloading. But one of the things *I* want to do is to manage the recoil, which means messing with lots of different powders until I find the one with the burn rate I want. I wish Hornady made their Superperformance ammo in x54R! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted February 5, 2012 Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 recoil?? In a PSL?? surely you are doing something wrong... I reload for mine... using .308 diameter bullets... it will keep 10 in one ragged hole at a hundred yards with a cold barrel. load data upon request... LOL... actually I posted it in some other threads... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted February 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2012 Yes commercial ammo is all over the place, thats why I reload, but some is better than others. I dont do this for any rifles except the bolties. The Saigas are easy, choose the best steel and burn that except those special mags we tend to take more care in loading. Those load up a bit differently since other factors come into play. Back to the matter at hand. I keep coming back to what $350 will buy and how rare a 1000 yard shot is in reality. 300m is a fair long shot around here and that's only around pipelines. The job can be done for no more cost than a few rounds of ammo at any rate. Seriously, there is a list I need to get done and it may be important one day that I did so. Besides ruining back and forth to the targets makes for good exercise and forces you to let the barrel cool down well between shots Of course different bullet designs change the wave propagating through the barrel, the powder load is the variable addressed here. Now can the procedure get you in the right ball park for the chosen powder? I have fair results from it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott Kenny 144 Posted February 6, 2012 Report Share Posted February 6, 2012 (edited) recoil?? In a PSL?? surely you are doing something wrong... It's those damn PPU 150gr softpoints... Kicks like a mofo even after I put an extra-power spring in there and is filthy/nasty ammo. The Czech surplus stuff is much nicer, but that sticks to a magnet (so I can't use it at any range). Edited February 6, 2012 by Scott Kenny Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Blazer76 3 Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 If I had a PSL I would get a DEZ Arms adjustable gas block it will tame most of the recoil by reducing the diamiter of the gas port and keep more gas behind the bullet, I did it to my WASR and shaved a pound off the carrier and also have a Wolf extra power spring and I have less recoil than a AR Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted March 10, 2012 Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 I NEVER found recoil to be an issue with EITHER of my PSL's... maybe you just have a WUSSIE shoulder?!?!?!? hahahahaha sorry, couldnt resist... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1mile50 102 Posted March 11, 2012 Report Share Posted March 11, 2012 (edited) I took this video today. There are 3 claybirds just right of center, near vertically centered. They are in a L shape. The 3rd bird I hit was covered with dirt from the 2nd shot and is hard to make out due to the video upload resolution, but it was there. Shots 4 & 5 are aimed at pieces you can't see in the video. This video is unedited because I wanted continuity. Please excuse the pace, it is worth watching to the end. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x_R4aEpOnA Edited March 12, 2012 by 1mile50 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 What was the range to those targets from the bench??? Good shooting!!! That mirage was fierce!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1mile50 102 Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 (edited) That is the berm of the 1000 yard line of the Manatee Gun Range @ 1017 yards. Hopefully you watched until I pulled back at the end of the video. It was the wind that was fierce for me today, 15 to 25 mph gusts, kite flying weather. And , thanks! Edited March 12, 2012 by 1mile50 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 YES I did.... Although, the ironic thing is... What impressed me MORE than the shooting... was that you were able to find a camera with ENOUGH ZOOM to actually get that close to the action and have it still be clear enough to see what was going on at a thousand yards!!! Nice shooting, regardless!!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1mile50 102 Posted March 12, 2012 Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 YES I did.... Although, the ironic thing is... What impressed me MORE than the shooting... was that you were able to find a camera with ENOUGH ZOOM to actually get that close to the action and have it still be clear enough to see what was going on at a thousand yards!!! Nice shooting, regardless!!!! Yes, that is amazing. I only paid like $225 for it, on sale. It is a Sony DCR-SX85 Handicam 60x Optical Zoom, boosted to 70x. It is very small, I can't figure how they get the focal length for that kind of magnification. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted March 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2012 Damn I am so freaking jealous of that range but not your weather, nice shooting man. Silly question what load and rifle you using, couldn't make it out in the vid. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott Kenny 144 Posted March 26, 2012 Report Share Posted March 26, 2012 Indy, one of these days I am going to have to meet up with you real-world and we can figure out WTFH is up with my PSL. The guys used to shooting Moisins said that it kicked harder than their rifles (and they're right). DEZ Arms adjustable gas block... interesting. 1mile50, that's some nice shooting you had going there, especially with that wind. Sony DCR-SX85 Handicam 60x Optical Zoom, huh? May need to get one of those myself, so that I don't need to borrow my shooting buddy's armored camera installation to take target pictures... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Where ya from Scott??? We can get your PSL figured out, for sure!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott Kenny 144 Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Unfortunately, I live on the other side of the country from you, all the way in Idaho. So one of us is going to need to make a road trip... Unless you are coming to the 2013 MGM Ironman... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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