Are Russian "Bakelite" 5.45 mags ( AK-74) Pre-Ban ?

[IPSC45 8]

See title. Is that Pre-ban? Please refer me also to any supporting text or documentation.

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Bakelites...accoring to the comcast web link

 

http://home.comcast...._mag_guide.html

 

... were the FIRST of THREE ( or more) "series" of mags produced by the Russians. Seem to be replaced by the various black ( or near-black) poly units in the mid to late 80's.

 

Surely.....someone here knows.

Edited May 10, 2012 by IPSC45

[thebuns1 4,323]

yes the bakes were the first in the series. followed buy shiny and then matte plum, then black. shiny plum mags should be pre ban. and the bakes were since they got replaced in the early 80's, though many remained in service and some still do.

 

with the introduction of the AK 74M in the early 90's, its hard to say exactly when production took place of the true black mags and the cut off for matte plum mags. production could have easily been overlapped.

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That's my frustrating problem.....I know ( "we" know, the people on this forum) ...that the Russian bakelites were the first attempt by them at non-metal magazines, followed by (at least) 2-3 more series of magazines, that then changed color to black (or "close-to" black). "WE" also know the Russian bakelites were probably (roughly) phased out and replaced by one of the later designs sometime in the 80's...without having to prove a single-year for this to happen. Just roughly in the 80's.

 

You would think someone would have written a scholarly review or book about this...some kind of reference source.....that I could "point-to".....that could help me in the event that I need to prove this to some "Authority", if ever I am asked....under whatever circumstances. So far, my only recourse that is fairly safe and certain, is to buy East German mags....by the simple expedient that EG ceased to exist as a country in 1989-90 after it reunified with West Germany. However, many say it is fairly safe to assume Russian bakelites are solidly "pre-ban" ( pre 9/94).......but I can't go simply on the word of gun enthusiasts who frequent this kind of discussion board.

 

I'd like to see something like this,but with a bit more "teeth" as to rough build dates--->

 

http://home.comcast...._mag_guide.html

 

=========================================

 

EDIT--->

 

Let's ask this somewhat related question, that may touch more of us on a National level. We all know about the stupid 922r law. Would we take a "casual" approach to compliance, or would we be very careful, and maybe even have a "build-book" of how we got to less-than-10-foreign parts in our guns? I think most of us would like to comply with the law ( however stupid and inane it is)....I'm simply trying to do the same thing on a State level with the magazine question.

 

Maybe the listed link is OK afterall ? ---> http://home.comcast.net/~shooter2_in...mag_guide.html

 

If you look under 30rd Russian Bakelites, you will find this lonely paragraph ( highlights added by ME, for emphasis)----> " The first Russian 5.45mm magazine type produced. Constructed from AG-4 phenolic resin (commonly known as "bakelite") with metal lip reinforcement, rear locking lug and floorplate. Distinctive mottled orange color. Arsenal mark on right side, mold number on left, near bottom of magazine body. Some examples may bear a small white "Made in Russia" sticker. Izhmash produced these magazines for the AK-74 and AKS-74 rifles; Tula produced them for the AKS-74U carbine. This magazine type was officially replaced in the early 1980s .

Edited May 8, 2012 by IPSC45

[thebuns1 4,323]

i dont think you'll find exact dates, as things with the AK-74 were usually phased in and out and revised as the russians desired, as well as having production overlapped. someone may have written a book about it, but i havent came across one yet, and dont know if it would be in "the grim reaper" book about AK's or not. good luck though and let us know if you come across anything cuz your not the only one to ask this question about the info you seek.

[MyGrassIsBlue05 14]

On Tantal's collector website, there is an essay written regarding the Russian AK74, and it states that:

"The dark plum magazines of the era were also changed to a true black color in the early 90's, but these took several years to become widely available in the field and were uncommon during the First Chechen War."

 

http://tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/variants.html

 

Also, in the book "The AK-47 and AK74 Kalashnikov Rifles and Their Variations", by Joe Poyer, there is a section regarding the various magazine makes.

Amazon.com's handy "look inside me" feature does not show page 44 however, so I'm unable to see if any useful information is written in regards to your quesiton.

The book is located here - http://www.amazon.com/AK-47-Kalashnikov-Rifles-Their-Variations/dp/1882391411/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1336511247&sr=1-1#_

 

I do think your second safest bet is with the E. German mags, and I can appreciate your enthusiasm regarding CYA measures.

 

However, when putting myself in your position, I think of it like this: If the government - whether it be a DNR officer at your range, a cop pulling you over on the way to the range, or a Fed who's knocking on your door - decides that you're breaking the law, then you're stuck having to prove your innocence.

In regards to 922r, I believe that if you were asked about U.S. made parts on your rifle, then whoever's asking is familiar with the law enough to know that *most* U.S.-made parts are marked as such..Heck, you may even get lucky enough that he knows how many parts are required. Show him the parts, let him count, *should* be no problem.

 

However - and again, this is my thought process when putting myself in your shoes - imagine, trying to make your pre-ban mag case to a new, fresh LEA who might have no idea about "east or west germany", but only knows that most high-cap mags are illegal?

You would hope that he (or she) would of course understand that it must be pre-ban since E. Germany ceased to exist prior to the AWB.

But what happens when the cop says, "Okay then, show me the stamp on it that says E. Germany, or a production date stamp"?

My own E. German mags simply have a "24" stamped at the bottom of the mag body. Of course, my followers and floor plates say "U.S." or "Made in USA", but this is of little significance when regarding capacity.

 

I would imagine that unless you could prove it - without a doubt, right then and there - you'd be in trouble.. Perhaps only for a moment, while things are "sorted out", but getting things sorted out could take more time than would be comfortable and could also require the services of a lawyer.

Also: how do you prove your innocence? When all you have are statements from a website, (even if they are true), or even a quote from the book, unless you're carrying around a copy of the book with you anytime you take your rifle out, the only opportunity you may have to present this information will be in court - again, back to the whole "lawyer" thing.

 

Plus, in my mind, if I had more of said magazines at my house I would also worry about the possibility of a warrant being executed.

More mags might mean more charges. I'm probably just paranoid, but it is a consideration when you're contemplating the worst case scenario - guilty until proven innocent. Also, imagine the cleanup you'd have to deal with when you did finally get back home...

 

Then again, you may just say "These magazines are pre-ban", and the person questioning you may say "Ok then! Have a good one!"

Again, all possibilities should be considered.

 

My point is that if you're worried about it, buy 10 round mags. If not, get the best evidence you can gather and hope for the best.

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Two things....

 

1.) Quote.... " If not, get the best evidence you can gather and hope for the best".... ( answer-->that is what I am attempting to do.)

 

2.) BTW,....my East German mags have a "made in Germany" white sticker on them...as is stated may exist on these mags in the comcast link. PLUS....E German are the ONLY Combloc mags with mold numbers on the lower/right. All other countries show a mold number on the lower left and/or an arsenal symbol on the lower/right.No issues proving them to BE East German....therefore no problem to show them being pre-ban. The Russian argument is not as clear.

 

And no....I am not paranoid enough to carry my encyclopedic proof with me....I'd be satisfied to show the authority that proof given a chance to get that proof from where it is stored originally. I'm sure you'd be given at least that opportunity.I don't think even an aggressive law-enforcement type would think you'd have that proof with you at all times... like a pistol permit. And maybe altogether I shouldn't be labeled as "Worried about it".....as much as I would prefer to be characterized as being "better prepared for the possible questioning".

 

The comcast and tantal text ( I found even more good quotes there)...although not "to-the-year"...may be ample proof,as it shows build-architecture progression over the span of several years.

Edited May 10, 2012 by IPSC45

[MyGrassIsBlue05 14]

Awesome. It seems like you already have things figured out then.

 

 

 

Have fun.

[IPSC45 8]

Only got there with the help and advice of this group..... never know how much reference material is "enough"...

 

....but I'm banking that questions to me will never come up (meaning..it would likely only come up as an EXTRA criminal charge if something else was criminally done)....and 2.) banking on showing a "reasonable effort" to get solid answers and showing how far the reference material takes us.

 

 

Basically...yeah.... I think I'm as good as can be expected.

Edited May 10, 2012 by IPSC45