devilfish13 6 Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 I've searched around a bit and thought I'd ask the experts I picked up a 223 a few months ago and converted it and installed a bulgarian FSB. Sooo when I went to install a Midwest SS rail, I noticed that leveling the rail to the receiver produced an off-center rail... centering to the RSB produced an off-center rail... don't ask me how it took me this long, having the rifle maybe three months and not noticing that my rear light leaf tips to the right at the rear. If I run a piece of drill rod down the center cut and slot in the rear sight, it hits the left ear on the FSB. This wouldn't bother me except... I had meticulously centered and installed the FSB to line up with the bore with a bore sight... and even eyeballing from the front, my FSB is now canted right. It shoots straight at 25yds, but given that I don't have access to much more distance than that, I don't know if it's accurate past that or if the goofy sights will be a problem. It appears it's just the leaf and not the block, but the leaf supports in the block may have been misdrilled... the block appears to be fairly straight... the RSB sides are dead-straight with the rail relief when the leaf is removed. So what I want to know is what you all would do in my situation. Deal with it or fix it/have it fixed? I'm debating getting another sight leaf (was going to get a Krebs ghost ring anyway, current is the 1-2-3 stock) and seeing if that straightens it out; if so, straightening my FSB, and if not, talking to a smith about possible replacing the RSB entirely and having it all lined up professionally. Unfortunate truth is that I'm a perfectionist, so unless there's not much point to trying to fix this I'll probably do something. I just hate how the canted sight looks, it's driving me crazy. Thoughts? At the moment I just have the rail centered to the receiver. It's straight with the gas tube and RSB, but not with either sight. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 (edited) Id go through the process of elimination first. Is your sight thats on it now, the standard 300m black sight from the factory? Remove it from the gun and take a closer look at the RSB and axis tabs on the sight itself. While your at it, check and see if "eyeballing" your FSB with your RSB, minus the sight, straightens itself out. Might as well replace the spring. I had to when I put a 1000m sight on. Somehow I fucked up the spring when removing the old sight. Edited September 15, 2012 by Captain Hero Quote Link to post Share on other sites
devilfish13 6 Posted September 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 Done. Seems the RSB lines up with the rail great, but shows the cant I put in the FSB. It had the stock 300m sight. It all looks fine near as I can tell, but the posts on the leaf do look worn. Maybe that's the issue and another leaf would fix you think? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 It couldnt hurt to try. The force of the spring may be causing the imperfections of the rear leaf to sit canted. How damaged does it look? What I did with my FSB install was remove the rear sight leaf and install the FSB and index it that way to avoid any possible conflict as to what you are encountering, and to know that they were in sync with eachother beforehand. Using a bore sight aint a bad idea, so long as you use both your front and rear sights to index the FSB, to give you a proper sight alignment. (never done it, but I would think it would be better) What I would look for is this. and i do this with all my AK's. With the rear sight leaf on or removed, shoulder the gun like you would when shooting. Put the FSB inbetween the ears of the RSB where the leaf axis tabs would sit (humps), and slowly draw the rear of the rifle downwards exposing more of the FSB as the ass end of the gun comes down. You may have to raise your head a little to make room, but it should give you an idea of how canted the FSB is (if any). Its not a bullet proof method by any means, but its a quick method I use when checking them in person before I purchase one. It could be your gas block causing all the headache too. If your tube is off due to the GB slightly being off, I imagine it could throw the rail off a tad as well. Ive got a spare factory rear leaf I can send ya if you want it. PM me your info and it may save you some coin. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 Disregard about your tube. I just read that your tube is ok. DUH. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 Pics would help. If you dont replace your rear sight, you could opt for the mallet wack surgery on the FSB. Just a suggestion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
devilfish13 6 Posted September 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 Thanks, I appreciate that, will PM shortly. I'll also try to get pics up this afternoon.or possibly sooner... the mallet whack I'm not sure of since it's pinned on, and it's held on by the pins and red loctite since the guy I had ream it reamed it bigger than I hoped... without the pins or loctite it has no wiggle at all, but it could be put on by hand and turned without a mallet. it's an AR-style fit, as I understand it. I don't know if the mallet would be enough to shift it on the loctite. I know I know, holy wile-e-coyote, but it works and hasn't shifted since I installed it. Eventually I'm going to switch to a GB/FSB combo. Just not yet ($$$). As for the leaf, the right post looks a little beat up. The left one looks fine. I read about another member performing a conversion and screwing up the leaf slots, so I hope that's not what happened here. I did my conversion with a hacksaw, bastard file and body hammer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 ill mail you my spare sight leaf and see if that helps before you have to spend money. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
devilfish13 6 Posted September 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 (edited) Well crap, from looking at the others and re-examining the sight picture from the RSB to FSB with the leaf removed, it looks like I have a canted GB alright. I can't believe I never noticed that either. Sigh. The leaf is definitely at an angle though... it tips POI to the right 2-3" at 25yds with the boresight... with the leaf removed it's dead-center. I'm afraid the best fix for this might be to just get a combo FSB/GB already and have it professionally installed... either way, I'll need a straight rear leaf, and from the picture the posts do look a little crooked... that might be what is throwing the leaf to the side... I suppose this is what I get for buying a no-returns as-is off GB, huh? it's ok, I specifically wanted a heavy-barreled, non-dimpled 223 Saiga for my build... and that's exactly what I got. Edited September 16, 2012 by SquidKitten Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 I'll still send you the sight. And it does look as if the GB has cant. Your FSB looks ok with the rear with the leaf removed. Im not familiar with the rails you have on that thing so I dont know how they mount. Is there only one way these things mount? Could it possibly be on backwards? Not doubting you by any means. I say that cuz ive done shit like that before myself. Is your GB pinned or pressed? If its pressed you may be able to mallet wack it back into place and then pin it. If its pinned, you could drift out the pins, re-align it, and drill new holes and pin it, then fill the old holes. Its hard to say if the rifle came this way. Some one may have fucked with it prior. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
devilfish13 6 Posted September 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 It's a Midwest Industries SS universal rail. Thankfully, there's only one way to install it and have it fit I don't know what to think on this one... in the pictures, the rail is leveled to the receiver, which also ironically centers the gas block in the front of the upper handguard. In order to line up the rail with the sights, I have to push the lower handguard - to which the upper mounts directly - as far as the adjustments will allow. The two are held together by an H-shaped (sort of) piece of aluminum that wedges between the barrel and gas block with a pair of set screws to prevent turning in addition to the clamping force of the H-block on the barrel. I have one screw all the way out and one all the way in now, and the rail lines up with the FSB/RSB... but the GB is cocked to one side in the front. To put it bluntly, it looks like butt, and not in a good way. As far as I can tell, the GB is lined up with the receiver perfectly, but both the FSB and RSB are crooked. I don't see any room to rotate the RSB, since it's fit tight and flush in the trunnion. My GB is pinned. I've thought before about repinning it... that wouldn't misalign the gas port, would it? If it gets to the point of hammer/torch/mallet surgery, I'm just going to put it off until I get a combo FSB/GB... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 The port on the GB has a bit of room to be moved and still properly function. The hole on the bottom side of the GB will give you an idea of how big the port is on the GB. The port in the barrel is much smaller. It shouldnt take much to get everything lined up straight if you decide to go that route. Mark the center of the hole on the underside of the GB before you move it so you know if you go too far. The reason that hole is there is when they drilled the port in the GB itself at the factory. It goes through the block and into the chamber itself in a strait shot. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
devilfish13 6 Posted September 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Alright. I still think I'm just going to go the replace-the-block route and just save the trouble. Know of any good AK smiths in the West Michigan area? ;) probably the next month or two I'll have this done... in the meantime I think I'll just deal with it... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
liberty -r- death 1,445 Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 A rear peep might be the easiest fix. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
devilfish13 6 Posted September 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Confirmed by my level: I have a canted FSB, a canted GB, and a canted RSB. The FSB and RSB are canted the same direction from the receiver, opposite the GB. Hooray! It's a project. Oh, and the leaf is still most definitely cocked to the right. I've already contacted my local smith, we'll see what he has to say on the topic. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 (edited) Looking at the pictures, that's pretty severe. The dimples on the barrel components are sometimes not fully seated into the machined divots in the barrel. This can allow them to move around, especially if hit hard somehow. There have been a few people that have had a dimpled RSB or FSB rotate on the barrel when the rifle dropped, or the component is hit from the side, but it seems to be rare. Also check that the barrel is installed at the correct rotation. I would think that it probably is, or else you would probably see all barrel components canted off to the same side. If the whole barrel is rotated, it would have to be removed from the trunnion, reinstalled with proper alignment, then drilled and re-pinned. If you were going to spend this much money either way, I would pay someone to just do a conversion on the front end of the Saiga with AK-74 components. You're going to spend a couple hundred dollars on the gun - may as well finish that part of the conversion. If you wanna do it yourself, you may be able to whack the barrel components straight with a dead-blow/plastic hammer, then pin them to make them secure. But it's a lot of work to still have the sporter FSB/GB still on there. Either way... Hope the gunsmith works with AKs often. Edited September 18, 2012 by mancat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
devilfish13 6 Posted September 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 Your avatar changed! Yeah, pinned, not dimpled. Not sure if the barrel is at the correct rotation... looks like the RSB is square in the trunnion, but it's not level to the receiver... The bulgy FSB looked crooked from the day I installed it, but I centered it with the boresight, like I said, using the sight leaf that was tipped to one side... not surprised it ended up canted due to that. Given all the other work I've done on my rifle, I have no problem with the idea of popping some pins and tipping some components. I'll just need to worry about getting it all straight in the end... that'll be my challenge. The only sporter part I still have on as far as barrel components goes is the gas block. I'm thinking about a Krebs GB/FSB combo, any thoughts on those? Not sure if I'd want to ream it out like I did my FSB originally or have the barrel lathed... the email I received earlier from Krebs said it'd be far better to lathe the barrel than to ream the block... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted September 18, 2012 Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 (edited) Oh ok, well if they're already pinned then you have an easier time. If your RSB is canted, and you aligned the FSB by boresighting, then it's not surprising that both ended up canted. Well, I think you have a pretty good idea about what you need to do to fix it. FSB is an easy fix, but knocking the RSB into alignment may be a bit of a harder task. The fact that the gas block appears to be straight suggests that the barrel itself may be correctly timed. If the RSB and trunnion are indeed square to one another, the trunnion may not be installed in the receiver completely true. You can spot this by removing the handguard and checking the space between the bottom of the trunnion and the receiver. It happens, even on a Saiga. Good luck. Edited September 18, 2012 by mancat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
devilfish13 6 Posted September 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 Well, I decided to bite the bullet for now and at least line up the front sight block. I removed the pins and mallet-whacked it straight to the rear sight block and eyeballed it close to center based on the rail (leveled to the receiver), and lo-and-behold, it lined up with the boresight. Weird. It even looks straight from the front. The blocks are all close enough now that I think I'm just going to deal with it. It looks like they're within a few degrees of eachother. The worst cant was definitely the Bulgarian FSB I put on lined up with the crooked sight leaf. Sooooo hopefully that other sight leaf will be straighter... if not, well, I guess I'm going to have some more fun with my bastard file I'll have to check the trunnion for true-ness next time I have the handguard off. I didn't bother today. I'm happy enough with it for the time being, but since the FSB is held on by red loctite and pins, I'm still seriously considering replacing the GB and FSB with a Krebs combo. Any idea if there would be hell to pay if I just reamed out a combo block to fit my 0.631"/16mm barrel, or would I seriously be better off just having the barrel removed, lathed, and reinstalled? Seems like a lot more can go wrong with the latter... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
devilfish13 6 Posted September 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 If I end up going with a combo block, I'm probably going to mill off the sight on the FSB that's on it now so it's just the plunger, bayonet lug, and threads. The other option is to get some thin-walled steel tube and hammer it on there to hide the original FSB mount point, and thread the end of the barrel... I'd need to muzzle-cut the front to 14mm (it's 15mm now) and thread it up the old-fashioned way. Fun fun. Probably turn out best that way though... Tough decision. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
devilfish13 6 Posted September 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 Ordered the combo block, I just like the look better... sacrifice on sight radius for now, but that's fine. The sight leaf from CH fixed it - thanks a bunch! Looks like it was a crooked leaf all along. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 Glad it helped. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
devilfish13 6 Posted September 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 Also confirmed, my trunnion has a slight tilt in the receiver. It appears to be due to the fact that one side of the front of my receiver is taller than the other. Hits a target and not noticeable with handguard on = who cares. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
liberty -r- death 1,445 Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 Also confirmed, my trunnion has a slight tilt in the receiver. It appears to be due to the fact that one side of the front of my receiver is taller than the other. Hits a target and not noticeable with handguard on = who cares. Good to hear! Last guy that had the issue had a shit fit. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 Also confirmed, my trunnion has a slight tilt in the receiver. It appears to be due to the fact that one side of the front of my receiver is taller than the other. Hits a target and not noticeable with handguard on = who cares. Good to hear! Last guy that had the issue had a shit fit. Yeah he acted like it was a 2k + custom target rifle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 Yeah I remember reading that. Almost every type of AK has some bendy mcbendersons somewhere. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
devilfish13 6 Posted September 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2012 I expected as much. It was a rifle intended to be used and maintained by semi-literate (at best) conscript soldiers. It's not a precision 1-MOA-at-a-mile rifle. The $300-500 range just isn't meant for that, it's a battle rifle, plain and simple. Besides, I've invested so much time in this particular rifle that I've become kind of attached to it, quirks and all. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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