Rodneyr 0 Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 Newb here looking too buy his first gun, and figured it might as well be a Saiga 12. I've been reading as much as I can and am trying to make an informed decision. Of course it would help to have some input from you guys who already own and shoot them. I live in NJ and can't have a semi-auto shotgun with a pistol grip, so I must buy an unconverted model (ugh). I'm trying to keep an eye towards the future where I will be out of NJ and can do a conversion. Anyway, while doing research on these, it seems that the biggest choice for me is the IZ-433 (030 type) and it's non adjustable gas system, or the traditional 109 (or variant (040?)) with adjustable gas. I am only buying one gun (for now) I do like the features of the 433, specifically the LRBHO and magwell. What mostly concerns me are the non-adjustable gas system and 4 round mags. What are the biggest concerns about the non adjustable gas system? I saw some posts earlier in the year saying big loads will beat up you and the gun. Not sure if there's any more insights since people have been using this model for more than a few months now. Also not sure if it will cycle light loads... I'd also like to have a 5 round mag (NJ max) and saw that Legion was working to make some 5 round VEPR mags that should fit the 433. I also like the idea of a drum (in the future when I am out of NJ) and it seems like the drum is not an option... yet. Any other thoughts on my first Saiga are greatly appreciated. Thanks -Rod Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 If you are ok with spending that kind of money with those features, look into the Vepr12 as a possible option too. It has better overall build quality and some neat features that the Saigas don't have. The downfall is magazine options currently are not as great as they are for the S12. If the AWB goes thru, there never will be either. Nothing wrong with regular old non magwell non LRBHO Saigas either. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rodneyr 0 Posted January 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 (edited) Problem with the VEPR is the pistol grip... so then I'd have to have it converted to a non pistol grip by a gunsmith... I couldn't even take posesssion and do it myself in NJ. I assume that means moving the trigger group such that it is like an unconverted Saiga.... I did think about this but didn't see anyone who has done it. If you are ok with spending that kind of money with those features, look into the Vepr12 as a possible option too. It has better overall build quality and some neat features that the Saigas don't have. The downfall is magazine options currently are not as great as they are for the S12. If the AWB goes thru, there never will be either. Nothing wrong with regular old non magwell non LRBHO Saigas either. Edited January 3, 2013 by NJSaiga Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zenman223 460 Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 (edited) Im not sure about NJ but I know in NY guys here have the thumbhole stocks. It is a stock with a pistol grip intregrated that will allow you to convert it and have a pistol grip(essentially) because it is all one piece. ETA Like this..... Edited January 3, 2013 by big-J Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rodneyr 0 Posted January 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 I've read up on the thumbhole stocks... That one is pretty much a skeleton grip, which may or may not be legal based on the NJ definition. Believe me, if I can get away with it, i'd do it, but not looking to jail here over it. Again, looks like I'd have to get a thumbhole stock and get it to the FFL who would be getting the VEPR and have them make the mods. Oh the joys of NJ. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 You should stick with a sporter Saiga then and not get caught up in the potential legalities. Changing a Vepr over is not really practical. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nephilim7 107 Posted January 3, 2013 Report Share Posted January 3, 2013 Good thing your state is so restrictive on gun laws! I bet you have like ZERO violent crime in NJ, right??? I agree with Mullet Man. Someone that knows the law may chime in and enlighten us all... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rodneyr 0 Posted January 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 4, 2013 Lol. NJ is not a good state to try to buy a gun in, that's for sure. Law abiding citizens are treated like criminals when trying to exercise their 2nd amendment rights. Anyway, the language about pistol grips in NJ is almost identical to NY. I believe a skeleton or thumbhole grip is legal, but I'd probably want to be closer to a thumbhole to be as safe as possible. There has been no definitive answer to whether a thumbhole is a pistol grip, but it certainly sounds like many people have Saiga 12s with the factory skeleton buttstock in NJ. Therefore it seems a Vepr could come in with a thumbhole or skeleton stock. Problem is how do I do that? I'd either have to have the seller do it on the shipping end, or have the FFL in NJ receiving it do the change. Not sure if anyone in NJ wants to do this right now. I think easiest would be for the seller to simply remove the pistol grip via unbolting it/hacksawing it off/whatever. Then I could have a Vepr 12 without a pistol grip. Not sure how it would shoot that way though lol. . I would of course fix it myself at my leisure with the stock I see fit. The real solution is to leave NJ but that's not realistic at this point. Thanks for all the input guys. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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