Gun problem or ammo problem?

[RockHoundTX 10]

I finally had a chance to take my "new-to-me" Saiga .410 out to the range today. I have put countless rounds through my Saiga-12 so figured this would be no different. The previous owner had indicated that he had put 75 rounds through it with no issue so figured it was fully broken in. On the first round I had a jam. The action had cycled but the spent round was still in the chamber. I pried out the spent round and tried again but now with the gas setting on #2 just for the fun of it. Second try had the exact same result. Thinking that the round being ejected might somehow be hitting the rounds in the mag, I loaded up only one round. On this third try not only did the spent round stay in the chamber, the primer came out of the round!!! I decided at that point I better not try anything else until I consulted the experts here.

 

Upon examining the brass, they were all severely bulged at the lip on one side (with a very slight bulge on the opposite side). Since I had hoped to reload, this a completely unacceptable situation. Upon close examination with a closed bolt, I could see the brass through the gap between the bolt assembly and frame. Since the bolt assembly was as far forward as it could go, I first assumed I had a head-space problem. However, once I completely disassembled the rifle at the house and dropped a live round into the chamber, I could see that the round did not fully seat into the chamber all the way around and stuck out about 1/8" or so right where the extractor is supposed to pick up the shell. The round does not seem to be bottoming out since the lip of the round is sitting right on the bevel of the chamber. My Saiga-12 also has this bevel but it seems to be further in the chamber and thus when you put in a round it seats all the way in with only the rim showing. In the picture you can see my Saiga-12 on top (all you can see is the silver colored rim of the shell) and the Saig-.410 on the bottom with quite a bit of brass showing.

 

In the second picture you can see the bulge that is created by this exposed area of brass. It is clear that the unsupported area near the extractor is bulging and thus the extractor can't grab the lip to extract the spent round. So now I know what the problem is but no clue on how to fix it.

 

The ammo I was using was Nobel 3" Max #4 shot. Doing a search I noticed a few folks have had issues with Nobel ammo but others seemed to indicate that it worked fine. None of the issues seemed to match what I am seeing here. I have a whole case of this stuff and can't return it so am hoping that there is an easy fix that does not require buying new ammo.

 

So now for the questions:

 

1) Is it normal for the area near the extractor to be inset that much so that the brass shows?

2) Is this just an ammo issue where the Nobel brass or lip is too large to seat properly? (measures as .466" diameter for brass hull and .525" diameter at lip)

 

Thanks.

RockHoundTX

[nagelmaker 0]

Time for a real honest to (idol of your choice) gunsmith!! i looked at my spent hulls and their is no bulge at all. is there any thing you can see in the chamber like a burr or rust. i know you know this but dont shoot it till you have it looked at or you are positive its seating the rounds properly. Edited June 22, 2008 by backwater

[G O B 3,516]

STRIP AND CLEAN THE BOLT! It looks like you may be slamfiring AND have a malfunctioning extractor claw. Both can be caused by grease and grit in the bolt housing. Does a round snap into the bolt/ (bot removed from gun)? Is the firing pin free enough to rattle? Did some one grease the gas system? (that needs to be dry and clean). The bolt needs to be clean with a LIGHT coat of oil.

[RockHoundTX 10]

Thanks for the suggestions. This is not a slamfire. The gun does not go bang until I pull the trigger. The bolt/firing-pin/etc are perfectly oiled and working correctly. As for there being an extractor issue, there may be one but that is not causing the bulge (the bulge is happening first which is then causing the extractor to miss the lip).

 

The chamber seems clean and I measured the chamber depth versus the Nobel rounds and that seemed fine. The OD spec of the brass seem to within normal tolerance for a .410 round but they definitely don't go in as easily as any of my 12 gauge rounds into my S-12.

 

The previous owner said that he had put 75 rounds of Silver Bear, Winchester, and RIO (which visually is identical to Nobel) with zero issues and no bulge. He is a member here and the build was good so have no reason to doubt him.

 

I am going to pick up a box of Winchester this week and see if they fit any differently. If they fit all the way in without any of the brass showing then I know I have an ammo problem. Because of the beveled lip I don't know why another manufacturer would fit differently but am willing to give it a try. As long as I can see brass I know that I have an unsafe condition so definitely won't be shooting it until this is resolved.

 

Thanks.

[IndyArms 10,186]

The FIRST thing I would do is drop a 2.5" round into the chamber and see what happens...

 

perhaps by some strange unknown act of God, you have a gas selectable saiga 410 with a 2.5" chamber like the OLD STYLE .410's used to have before they switched them...

 

God knows ANYTHING with a Saiga is possible... Its like they have bins of parts and just pick whatever they have and assemble...

 

IF the 2.5 inch round fits the exact same way... then the next step IS A QUALIFIED GUNSMITH... as something in the chamber is blocking the proper seating of the round.

 

DO NOT FIRE anymore ammo with them out of battery like that, or you are looking to be injured...

 

Thats a very odd problem... and I must admit... I have NEVER seen that happen before!!

 

 

[RockHoundTX 10]

Hello Indy,

Thanks for the reply. I measured the depth of the chamber and it was roughly 2.95" (I found a socket that was exactly the diameter of a .410 shell, put it on a 4" extension, dropped it in, marked it, then pulled it out and measured).

 

Since the previous owner said that Winchester 3" #4 worked perfectly, I went out and bought a box. Unfortunately, the amount of brass showing is exactly the same.

 

I usually buy things in two's just so that I have a reference if/when I screw up the first one. Unfortunately, I don't have that luxury this time. I thought I could learn something by looking at my S-12 or S-7.62 but the bolt and locking mechanisms on all three are RADICALLY different. On the S-12, the extractor pushes straight in and does not move (the bolt lock and extractor are two separate pieces). On the S-.410, the extractor actually rotates about 1/8 of a turn as the bolt locks into place (the bolt lock and extractor are the same piece). There is actually a channel for the extractor to move from the top position to the locked position as shown in the picture.

 

Shown in the picture is the bolt fully locked into place. As you can see, the extractor is positioned exactly behind the lip where you would expect it to be (and thus, the lip of the shell is exactly where it should be). But again, what I would not expect is the amount of brass showing. Can someone with a S-.410 load up a round (or snap-cap if you got it) and see if your looks like mine? PLEAASSEEE!!!

 

The previous owner still says that he put 75 rounds through it with no problems and this just does not seem like a problem that would just "magically appear". I would not be at all surprised if others looked the same and that would make me feel much better tomorrow when I try a single round of the Winchester to see if it bulges like the Nobel . I have not ruled out just yet that this is an ammo problem (perhaps the Nobel brass is thinner than the Winchester or Silver Bear and thus will bulge when the other won't?)

 

While I very much appreciate all the "take it to a gunsmith" comments, none of the 3 gunsmiths that I use locally have even the foggiest clue about a Saiga. Without a working model as a reference, I just don't see them figuring this out either. Assuming that all Saiga-.410s don't look like this (which at this point I am REALLY hoping they do), my guess would be that some-one in Russia wasn't watching what they were doing and reamed the extractor groove a little too far. If that is the case, I don't see how this could be fixed short of replacing the whole barrel (which I doubt RAA would do). But hopefully someone will say "Yep. Mine looks exactly like that and I have 1000 rounds down-range with zero problems."

 

Thanks again for everyone's help and suggestions.

[rd99fxdl 17]

Have you checked the gas piston?

With one big hole for the gas port ends up gooping up the puck and deens to be cleaned.

If the puck isn't rattling in there its time to clean,also when you do it,put it together dry.

That can cause the works to stop fully functioning too.

[IndyArms 10,186]

I dont think that could be it... as he said he cant drop a shell into the chamber and have it seat properly... The shell sticks up about an eigth of an inch above the lip of the chamber edge... so it wouldnt make any difference how gummed up the gas port/piston/bolt carrier assembly is...

 

if the depth is 2.95.... that is more than enough for a 3" shell, as its not 3" until AFTER its fired... it is about 2.75 before firing...

 

Are you SURE there are no obstructions, dings, burrs, dents, or out of round spots in the chamber?!?!?!?

 

I would like to know if a 2.5" shell will fit, and its just a long shell issue, or if they do it too... and then you know it will have something to do with the brass diameter...

 

 

I wish I could see this for myself.... this is odd...

 

 

[rd99fxdl 17]

True,but if the puck is stuck at the back,it wont let the bolt and carrier all the way forward because of the rod holing it back.

Had that happen on mine and found that to be the problem.

[RockHoundTX 10]

I really don't believe it is a chamber issue. As per the latest tests and pictures, the round does seem to seat properly EXCEPT at the slot for the extractor where there is the 1/8" of brass showing (since that is the only area really visable, that is why I originally thought the round was not seating properly). That's why I need someone to look at their S-.410 with a chambered round to see if they see the same thing.

 

I know that it is not a gas piston issue since the above picture does not even have the gas piston installed. For the above picture, I removed the bolt from the gas piston/bolt assembly, manually stuck the shell on the bolt so that it was held on both sides by the extractors, and manually fed it into the chamber. By pushing and twisting, I am in the fully locked (and ready to fire) position in the above picture.

[IndyArms 10,186]

Well, I had to go check... for you and myself... ( and anyone else that was curious too...)

 

Your shells are seating all the way, as they should be... no surprise there, I guess... SO...

 

I would say the only thing left to consider is that you have some ammo with VERY SOFT brass allowing it to deform...

 

( dont mind my DIRTY gun... It hasn't been cleaned or shot since January or February... hi res cameras show off all the grunge and dust and grime! LOL )

 

 

SO... as you can see here...

 

 

Mine looks the same as yours...

 

And without the bullet in place, but the bolt seated fully...

 

 

Theres that GAP you notice...

 

And here is with a shell in at two different angles without the bolt in, just because I took them, might as well post them too... LOL

 

 

 

Mine really is the same, so I would go with cheap ammo... or very thin brass... or defective in some way... The gun, I would say, is fine....

 

Try some other types of ammo through it and see if they do it too... I have never really LOOKED at mine, to tell if any do it or not... I will have to start looking though, just to see, now...

 

 

 

[lenf 5]

Mine looks the same. Try the new ammo. Tie the gun to a couple of sawhorses and tie a piece of string to the trigger if you're nervous about it. I've used Barnaul steel hulls, Sellier & Bellot, Winchester, Remington and Rottweil. I've had predictable results with shot patterns with all of them. No duds, no perforated primers. I used only two boxes of Rottweil slugs and they were defective. First the boxes were marked 3" and the shells were 2 1/2". Then they fired as though it were a pop gun with just a little phht, hardly a bang at all, and not enough to even eject the shell. I manually loaded, fired and ejected all of them out of cussedness. The only other ammo problem I've had was three Winchester #4 magnums splitting their plastic cases. A straight line as though it had been cut with a knife. They seemed a little louder than normal and I got spattered with powder. I didn't realize what had happened until I picked up the cases. Three shells, all out of the same box. I've put well over 800 rounds through the gun and these were the only problems I've had. If you've got a whole case you can't return, dig a box out from the bottom and try a few rounds, maybe it's not the whole lot. Try the new ammo first.

[cscharlie 107]

Two things come to mind. Sounds like presure signs. Like the ammo is loaded too hot. That might cause the shell to buldge and fit tight in the chamber along with the popped primer, and buldged brass......

 

Other thought is tight chamber out of dimension. Is the chamber clean? Does the Winchester slide into the chamber any easier than the other stuff?

[RockHoundTX 10]

Hello Indy,

THANK YOU for the pics That was greatly appreciated. It is relieving to know that the gun is OK. I was truly dreading the thought of having to send it back to the factory.

 

Just to make sure, I loaded up a round of the Winchester and did a test fire. There was no deformation of the brass that I could see. So it looks like the questions has been satisfactorly answered. In this case it was the ammo. I will send a note to Nobel tomorrow (with appropriate pictures) and post back whatever their response is.

 

Based on these findings, I wonder if it makes sense to have a sticky at the top of the S-.410 section on what rounds are safe and not safe to fire in a Saiga? My guess is that these rounds would have been just fine in a break-barrel shotgun but the shells were just too thin or too softly annealed to handle the odd configuration on the Saiga.

 

Again, thanks to everyone for your assistance.

[rd99fxdl 17]

Untill you posted those pics,I never noticed that either but checking it it does have the open look.

Had to check too.

I've run Wolf,Remington and Silver Bear steel hull through mine and never noticed any bulging like you show.

[RockHoundTX 10]

Last week I contacted DKG Trading/Zanders Sporting Goods who is the importer of the Nobel ammo. Customer service was absolutely fantastic. I sent them the pics of the bulged rounds and the response was "That is not supposed to happen. Go ahead and destroy those rounds and we will send you a replacement. Would you prefer Remington on Winchester". Today a new case of Winchester High Brass 3" #4 was delivered to my house via UPS.

 

I am a happy camper now. I now know that my S-.410 is functioning properly and have 250 rounds of "the good stuff" to throw down-range this weekend Because of a burn-ban here in South Texas, we are not allowed to shoot off fireworks this year. But that is not going to stop the "noise-making" around my house very much

[IndyArms 10,186]

I wouldnt "destroy" those rounds... just sell them to someone with a single shot, or a pump shotgun... I am betting they will function fine with a full chamber around them...

 

Or you can just send them to me... My Rossi 410 single shot would eat em up!

 

 

[G O B 3,516]

PROBLEM FOUND!

In your pix the extractor claw is behind the rim of the shell.

It should be snapped over the rim. When you fire a round it is pushing the rim back against the extractor and THAT is causing the brass to deform. And since the claw is on the WRONG side of the rim, it cannot extract the round!

You should be able the move the extractor claw by hand. The bolt (removed from the gun) should snap over a spent round, held tight by the extractor claw. The base of the round MUST be flat against the bolt face.

 

 

DO NOT SHOOT THIS GUN UNTILL REPAIRED!

[RockHoundTX 10]

Hello GOB,

You need better glasses or a better computer monitor If you look closely the extractor is exactly where it should be. The picture from IndyArms matches mine exactly. I appreciate the concern but am pretty much good-to-go at this point. With the Winchester ammo the S-.410 extracts just fine

[G O B 3,516]

You are right, dirty glasses. I was looking at the area above the claw - it still looks like there is a cresent shaped unsupported area there. The wife's bolt seems to be shaped different there, more metal.