OK, what's the importation procedure on mags?

[McUZI 1]

What forms, taxes and other hoops need be jumped to import magazines?

[beerslurpy 1]

None, but to affix these imported magazines to non-modified saigas would create a "non sporting firearm" with greater than 10 non-US parts, a likely violation of federal law. This is why EAA doesnt do it. Like Thompson center was accused of selling "short barrel rifles" for selling a kit which contained both rifle stocks and pistol barrels, EAA is concerned that ATF could accuse them of importing non-sporting shotguns and ban them. If the only possible configuration of saiga you can buy from EAA is a "sporting" version, they are in the clear and can continue to earn money selling them.

 

There is nothing to stop you from doing it, especially if you own a US PG/TG converted saiga. Since your posession of the magazines would be unquestionably legal, you can bring them into the country with no problems.

[bhart89 0]

I'm not aware of any domestic Saiga magazines so adding a russian one wouldn't be adding an imported part in my view.

 

I believe that if the value of the goods imported exceed $100 than an excise tax must be paid. To whom I don't know. But you could get around this by buying one magazine at a time and paying shipping for each item seperately.

 

Discalmer: I'm no lawyer nor did I sleep in a Holiday Inn last night.

Edited September 26, 2004 by bhart89

[beerslurpy 1]

I'm not aware of any domestic Saiga magazines so adding a russian one wouldn't be adding an imported part in my view.

 

I believe that if the value of the goods imported exceed $100 than an excise tax must be paid. To whom I don't know. But you could get around this by buying one magazine at a time and paying shipping for each item seperately.

 

Discalmer: I'm no lawyer nor did I sleep in a Holiday Inn last night.

No, but swapping the imported 5 rounder for the imported 8 rounder creates, in the view of some people, an unsporting firearm. Since a stock saiga still has more than 10 imported parts it would be an "imported non-sporting firearm" ala 1989 import ban.

 

A converted saiga isnt "imported" anymore so magazine size is no longer affected.

[bhart89 0]

Is it written anywhere that an 8 round detachable magazine is "Non-sporting"?

 

I believe that the BATFE needs to classify a firearms as "Non-sporting" by name and not by mag capacity.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong on this anyone...

[Cesiumsponge 0]

The BATF needs to do many things but they don't operate on a logical process to begin with so we're left with open-ended responses on issues whereby they can clamp down in the future if they wished because of the leeway they leave themselves, and more loopholes than a poorly sewn quilt.

[beerslurpy 1]

Is it written anywhere that an 8 round detachable magazine is "Non-sporting"?

 

I believe that the BATFE needs to classify a firearms as "Non-sporting" by name and not by mag capacity.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong on this anyone...

EAA beleives the firearm itself would become unsporting if it could be purchased with 8 round mags.

 

I think this is retarded, but they are just being prudent. The guns are selling well right now and people are doing conversions with no problems so why change what isnt broken?

[McUZI 1]

Is it written anywhere that an 8 round detachable magazine is "Non-sporting"?

 

I believe that the BATFE needs to classify a firearms as "Non-sporting" by name and not by mag capacity.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong on this anyone...

The "Over 5 Round/Nonsporting" provisions have to do with the 1989 Importation Ban.

 

The catch is, that while the magazines would be totally legal in our US Converted guns, EAA knows that the number of people converting the Saigas within the full scope of US Compliance is dwarfed by the number of people who have their Saigas in as-imported configuration, and don't understand the complexities of the law.

 

I'm trying to think of a metaphor, but I can't.

 

It pretty much boils down to EAA being aware that by making 8 round magazines available, they would be bought by EVERYONE who owns Saigas- US conversion or not- and a whole lotta people would then be in violation of the law, threatening the importation of the gun itself with a "Nonsporting" label.

[Cesiumsponge 0]

It pretty much boils down to EAA being aware that by making 8 round magazines available, they would be bought by EVERYONE who owns Saigas- US conversion or not- and a whole lotta people would then be in violation of the law, threatening the importation of the gun itself with a "Nonsporting" label.

 

For some reason that statement strikes me as odd. Maybe I'm missing an obvious point that hasn't dawned on me yet, but here goes nothing...

 

During the AWB, vendors sold high-capacity pre-ban magazines for use for pre-ban rifles only. Yet, someone with a postban rifle -could- buy it and use the very same magazine in their post-bans -at their own risk-.

 

Despite the very open possibility of people putting pre-ban magazines in their post-ban rifles, thus making them evil and illegal, companies continued to sell these pre-ban magazines with the heading that they are to be used in pre-ban rifles only.

 

Now fast forward to today. EAA could sell 8 round magazines for "US converted Saiga shotguns only" because there is indeed a market for people who require these magazines for their completely legal (converted) Saiga 12. Again, like the situation with the AWB, people -could- put it on their sporting Saiga 12 and make it illegal.

 

The only difference is replace "sporting Saiga 12" with "post-ban firearm", and replace "converted Saiga 12" with "pre-ban firearm". I think both situations are pretty much the same.

 

I don't see why it was okay to sell high-capacity magazines during the AWB where the purchasing body -could possibly- put them on post-ban firearms illegally, but we aren't even given the opportunity to put the high-cap magazines on our converted Saigas....

 

Am I missing something here or is this a complete reversal on stances?

Edited September 27, 2004 by Cesiumsponge

[Bvamp 604]

there used to be a special ATF permit you needed to use to import any magazine. Im not sure if its changed since the 14th, but I highly doubt it, because you couldnt import hi caps then. good luck digging through thier site for it. I found it once looking for (I THINK the search was) "importing magazine" or else it was "importing ammunition feeding device". if you find it, let me know where it is located, will ya please?

[Bvamp 604]

this is the best I can do for you:

 

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/feib/index.htm

 

there is a link there

 

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmsimpreststamps.pdf

 

look in there for importing shotgun with mag capacity of more than 5 rounds. it says ya cant. I love the clusterf@#k of a law system we have. pure joy.

[Salmonaxe 0]

Cesiumsponge, I don't think it was illegal to use preban mags in post ban weapons. You could choose 2 evil features, and one was the ability to accept a detachable magazine, which I would think included all capacities. I just think it was illegal for them to manufacture mags with a capacity higher then 10 for civilians, and it was illegal to use or own Hi-cap post ban(LEO) mags.

 

Using Hi-caps in imported Sporting purposes firearms was, and still is illegal. That's why one of the companies out there imported single stack AK's and converted them over to double stacks with the correct number of US parts.

 

The AWB wasn't such a big deal... not in comparison to the import ban! The import ban has made many manufacturers all but give up on the US market. Look at HK, they don't make a single rifle available to US civilians anymore. I love my AR15, but who knows, if I could buy a decent priced AUG, or a real G36, my AR15 might start to collect dust.

 

....and we've got daddy Bush to thank for that one.

[McUZI 1]

Despite the very open possibility of people putting pre-ban magazines in their post-ban rifles, thus making them evil and illegal,

 

Am I missing something here?

Yes, you are missing something.

It's called knowledge.

 

It was never illegal to put a preban magazine into a postban rifle.

[Cesiumsponge 0]

Pardon my misguided thoughts then. I was under different impressions and made the assumption that it was true. There tends to be a lot of "urban legends" floating around firearm laws in which even gun shop employees (as we've mentioned on this forum numerous times) are occasionally fallable to.

[J A 0]

http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx...27cfr47_02.html

 

47.41

 

© A permit is not required for the importation of--

(1)(i) The U.S. Munitions Import List articles from Canada, except

articles enumerated in Categories I, II, III, IV, VI(e), VIII(a), XVI,

and XX; and

(ii) Nuclear weapons strategic delivery systems and all specifically

designed components, parts, accessories, attachments, and associated

equipment thereof (see Category XXI); or

(2) Minor components and parts for Category I(a) and I( firearms,

except barrels, cylinders, receivers (frames) or complete breech

mechanisms, when the total value does not exceed $100 wholesale in any

single transaction.

 

So more than $100 and you have to file a Form 6. It has to be approved before you can import anything.

[beerslurpy 1]

Sweet I can import nuclear missles without any tedious paperwork *opens checkbook*.

[infidel 0]

Also, the law clearly says for a semiautomatic shotgun:

 

"a FIXED magazine in excess of five rounds"; followed by "and an ability to accept a detachable magazine."

 

Notice how there is no mention of capacity given to detachable mags.

[Bvamp 604]

heres an interesting import stamp:

 

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmsimpreststamps.pdf

[KySoldier 2]

That is strange that detachable stocks are a no no, they weren't covered under the AWB. You couldn't have a folding stock, but you could take it off as long as you met the minimum length, or you could make it detachable, I thought about it, but then the ban expired...anyone know where I can get a folding krink stock??

[infidel 0]

heres an interesting import stamp:

 

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmsimpreststamps.pdf

Thanks for posting that. May I offer a posibility?

 

Lets consider how anal AND vague these laws are written. Who is to say they aren't referring to the tube below the barrel of a shotgun as they do not specify a detachable mag? That is the way I interpret it, otherwise how are we getting the Saiga imported in the first place?

Is it not a shotgun that has a magazine capacity over 5 rounds? Yes according to you, NO according to me. Because it does not have a magazine capacity at all, because its magazine is of the detachable kind...

 

So that is the important question for me, if the Saiga falls under your sources interpretaion of unimportable, why are they here?

[Bvamp 604]

and if the shiped cargo crate has both s12 and 8 round mags in it? what then?

[McUZI 1]

I ain't no lawyer, but I DO watch a lot of Matlock.

 

American jurisprudence would take an awfully dim view of these guns being certified as non-DDs by the ATF and their importation allowed for years in LE Configuration, but then suddenly changed once the AWB expired- when the AWB didn't have A THING to do with Destructive Devices.

[allen96 0]

Sorry for the OT post but I just gotta ask.

 

Is this the REAL McUZI? The one from McUZI.com?

[Bvamp 604]

i would have to say, probably? us saiga12 owners are pretty up-to-the-deal with our shotguns, as they ride a fine line......

[Dave_A 0]

Actually, there is no for-sure known fact that 8rd mags would make the gun non-sporting...

 

'Ability to accept Large Capacity Military Magazines' became a feature of the import ban in 1998, however 'Large Capacity' was defined as over 10 rounds, not 5.

 

The 5 round limit was part of the 1994 Crime Bill ban (the one that has sunset), and had no bearing on the sporting-purposes ban...

 

EAA may be legitimately worried about the ATF declaring the Saiga a non-sporting shotgun & making it not just unimportable, but NFA...

 

However, there are no legal ramifications to using an 8rd mag in your gun, weather it has been 'US Partsed' or not...

 

Also, the 94 AWB did *not* require you to have a pre-ban gun to use large-capacity mags. All that was required was that the MAG be pre-ban, and they were... This was a common misconception, it was allways perfectly legal to sell hi-cap mags for (and use them in) post-ban guns... You just had to use pre-9/94 mags... Of course that doesn't matter now...

[Dave_A 0]

heres an interesting import stamp:

 

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmsimpreststamps.pdf

That is a pre-September permit

 

The 5 round limit expired 9/13/04, along with the rules preventing conversion.

[Bvamp 604]

what is that other penal code # under then? therea re two violations on that one, not just 922

 

large capacity magazine is for a detachable semi automatic firearm magazine, no other. it SHOULD be ten rounds, but it HASNT been. whats that other penal code with it? there's two numbers that refer to penal codes. you say one is gone, but is the OTHER?

Edited October 5, 2004 by Bvamp