Help

[Dada187 0]

I have bought a us made pistol grip and folding stock from ACE and also bought a 30rnd pro-mag which is also us made and im in the process of ordering a us made handgaurd,what else could i do other than change the piston to help get my foreign parts count down? does the folding stock and pistol grip count as 1 or 2? I know the pro-mag counts as 3 and the handguard counts as 1, How many other parts do i need to change to b within the law? Any help will be great Thanx!

[micah360 6]

stock and PG count as 2 parts

[Navy87Guy 1]

The buttstock, grip and all-US mag get you in compliance with 922R (your rifle now has 15 countable parts...so 15-5=10) With the handguard, you're one part ahead of the game.

 

I guess I'm a little confused, though....you can't install the pistol grip until you do the conversion (or did you get the Saiga grip from ACE, like this: http://riflestocks.com/SaigaAK.htm ) If it's not that combo, then you're going to have to do the conversion so you'll need a new fire control group. The FCG will count as 3 parts and you won't have to worry about using the magazines to get you in compliance.

 

Jim

[Dada187 0]

The buttstock, grip and all-US mag get you in compliance with 922R (your rifle now has 15 countable parts...so 15-5=10) With the handguard, you're one part ahead of the game.

 

I guess I'm a little confused, though....you can't install the pistol grip until you do the conversion (or did you get the Saiga grip from ACE, like this: http://riflestocks.com/SaigaAK.htm ) If it's not that combo, then you're going to have to do the conversion so you'll need a new fire control group. The FCG will count as 3 parts and you won't have to worry about using the magazines to get you in compliance.

 

Jim

Yeah its the pistol grip and folding stock from ACE! Thanx again for the help!

[BullShark012 1]

"Jul 10 2007, 05:01 PM The buttstock, grip and all-US mag get you in compliance with 922R (your rifle now has 15 countable parts...so 15-5=10) With the handguard, you're one part ahead of the game."

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jim, sounds like I can just add the ACE folding Buttstock & PG and a US made Mag (30 rd. ?) and be compliant? no FCG conversion work required!

 

your qoute:

"If it's not that combo, then you're going to have to do the conversion so you'll need a new fire control group. "

 

 

BS 012

Edited July 17, 2007 by BullShark012

[Navy87Guy 1]

Bullshark -

 

Yes, the ACE pistol grip, stock and an all US-made Promag make you compliant. No further mods required.

 

Personally, I don't like having to rely on my magazines for 922R compliance. I would prefer to be able to throw any mag in my rifle and not have to worry about it. Without doing the full conversion, though, it gets harder (gas piston, hammer and foreguard are the next most common parts). Just be aware that if someone were to insert a foreign magazine into your rifle, it would be breaking the law.

 

Jim

Edited July 17, 2007 by Navy87Guy

[topmaul 42]

Pistol grip does not count as a compliance part because you are not replacing a pistol grip your adding a part. The key to 922r is replacing imported parts with US parts not adding US parts. If you need 5 US parts I suggest a US fire control group 3, parts stock 4, and a hand guard like the Tapco Galil 5, they you can use any magazine you want. And you are fine with 922r, That Ace pistol grip stock is ugly for one thing and it adds to the over all length of the weapon making it not exactly handy also I feel that Ace did a disservice to the gun owning public by making it. The best thing to do is a full conversion. That ACE stock/PG combo is only one compliance part at least that is my understanding of 922r.

[Navy87Guy 1]

Pistol grip does not count as a compliance part because you are not replacing a pistol grip your adding a part. The key to 922r is replacing imported parts with US parts not adding US parts. If you need 5 US parts I suggest a US fire control group 3, parts stock 4, and a hand guard like the Tapco Galil 5, they you can use any magazine you want. And you are fine with 922r, That Ace pistol grip stock is ugly for one thing and it adds to the over all length of the weapon making it not exactly handy also I feel that Ace did a disservice to the gun owning public by making it. The best thing to do is a full conversion. That ACE stock/PG combo is only one compliance part at least that is my understanding of 922r.

 

The pistol grip absolutely counts as a compliance part. By adding a pistol grip, the weapon now has 15 (not 14) countable parts. Because it is US-made, it counts toward compliance. Therefore, you need four more parts to be compliant. Handguard, buttstock and magazine parts are all options.

 

Compliance is about the total number of countable parts in the weapon -- whether you are adding or replacing. It is not about replacing parts -- it's about total parts count. Period. If you just start with the total number of parts and work backwards, you'll be fine. It's pretty simple math.

 

Jim

[nalioth 405]

You guys make sure you are getting the correct Ace stock and pistol grip set. You can buy both types from Ace (the type you have to rip the guts out of your Saiga, and the type that just bolts on in place of your Monte Carlo).

 

This is the pg/stock combo that requires NO MODS: http://www.riflestocks.com/SaigaAK.htm

 

Anything else you buy from Ace for your Saiga will require you to modify it.

[Navy87Guy 1]

Nalioth is right -- that's the only version that doesn't require conversion. Also note that, though they show it as a unit, you actually have to buy the parts (pistol grip/block and buttstock) separately. So you have the option to get a side folder, skeleton stock, AR-stock and adapter, etc. There is no place on the website to order "the kit".

 

Jim

[Dada187 0]

Nalioth is right -- that's the only version that doesn't require conversion. Also note that, though they show it as a unit, you actually have to buy the parts (pistol grip/block and buttstock) separately. So you have the option to get a side folder, skeleton stock, AR-stock and adapter, etc. There is no place on the website to order "the kit".

 

Jim

I got the kit from blackjackbuffers.com and they sell it as a kit but they get it from ACE,but if you order it from ACE yeah they sell it in parts. Its even cheaper at blackjacks also,lol!

[BullShark012 1]

Navy87Guy : "Nalioth is right -- that's the only version that doesn't require conversion.

 

nalioth : " This is the pg/stock combo that requires NO MODS: http://www.riflestocks.com/SaigaAK.htm"

 

 

Here's what I might do soon:

 

1) Buy from ACE or blackjacks, the Saiga Folding Buttstock 'Kit' w/ Pistol Grip for about $185. (ALL US Parts)

 

2) Buy from the co. that makes Saiga US 30 rd. mags. ??? (forgot their name)? Surefire??? (ALL US Parts)

 

3) Now I have a 922r compliant rifle w/ PG, Folding Buttstock, 30 mag.

 

4) Next I Dremmel my Fore Grip for Slots.

 

5) Now I have an assualt rifle. that meets 922r without hardly any conversion needed. Correct?

 

BS012

[Navy87Guy 1]

I don't know anyone that makes all-US mags for the Saiga. The Surefire mags are built on foreign mag bodies. For flexibility and cost savings, I'd recommend spending the $25 to get the bullet guide to allow you to use standard AK magazines. Then you can buy some ProMag or Mold Master magazines (all-US, polymer mags) and be compliant. Those Surefire mags are pricey compared to the ProMags.

 

Then, when you get around to the full conversion, you can use any AK mag.

 

Jim

[BullShark012 1]

Thanks, I'll do that then... Will do that later.

 

But,

2) Let's say, temporarially for now, I just get the ACE PG / Folding Stock set. (US parts) ... and keep my 10 rd. stock mag. would I be ok?

 

This gets a bit confusing! I dont' want to start a full blown conversion yet.

 

But I want 30 rd. mag.

[nalioth 405]

Thanks, I'll do that then... Will do that later.

 

But,

2) Let's say, temporarially for now, I just get the ACE PG / Folding Stock set. (US parts) ... and keep my 10 rd. stock mag. would I be ok?

 

This gets a bit confusing! I dont' want to start a full blown conversion yet.

 

But I want 30 rd. mag.

No, because you are taking the Saiga out of "sporting form".

 

I think you should just get a standard AK Ace stock and a regular ol' pistol grip and a AK FCG and just do a conversion. It's really not difficult at all. The hard part (not really hard) is finding the conversion parts.

[Navy87Guy 1]

I was going to suggest the same thing as Nalioth.

 

$185 is a lot to spend on a "temporary" set up. Once you go down that path, you've committed yourself to 922R compliance.

 

You can order the same set up for the converted rifle for about the same price. The only "extra" expense would be doing the fire control group -- which you can get for $27 + S/H from JSE Surplus (www.jsesurplus.com). Then (assuming you install the bullet guide) you can use any 30-rd mag you have to your heart's content without having to worry about compliance issues.

 

It's your call. A hand drill, a Dremel, the parts and about 4 hours is all you need to complete the conversion.

 

Jim

[BullShark012 1]

Thanks - guys. Bottom line for me is it's my first Saiga and I just want to be able to use 30 rd. mags on it leagally. Just looking for the simplest, least expensive, way to get there. If I could just buy the Surefire Mag (since it fits Saiga w/ no Mod) and pop it in and be leagal, that's all I'd do (for now). But If I have to, I guess I'll be converting. My fisrt goal is to quickly get to 30 rd. mag capability.

 

BS012

[topmaul 42]

Edited July 18, 2007 by topmaul

[Navy87Guy 1]

Comrade Jim,

The number is ten imported parts, so adding a US part that was not on the weapon in the first place will not effect the over all number of parts you have to only have ten Russian parts so, this math is not hard but, it is subtraction not addition. I just disagree with your inturpration of the law, I am not a lawyer so I could be wrong but I do honestly believe that I am right on this one.

 

Jim I do understand what you are saying I just think it is thin legal ice. It is better to just break down and do a full conversion so you don't have this problem.

 

 

The magic number is 10 or less imported parts.

 

You are absolutely right -- the magic number is 10. But it has to consider the total number of countable parts. There's nothing "thin" about the legality of my argument. In fact, it's safer than your approach - because if you always start with the total number of countable parts, you'll never be surprised. The term "countable" refers to whether or not it appears on the list you quoted. Countability has nothing to do with the origin of the part. A stock Saiga sporter has 14 countable parts. If you add a pistol grip, it now has 15 countable parts. It doesn't matter if they are all foreign made or all American made -- there are 15 parts that count for compliance.

 

Now, figure out how many of them need to be US made to get the total number of foreign made countable parts down to 10. That's the key to compliance. In this case, the number is 5. So for Bullshark, he gets credit for the buttstock, the pistol grip, and the US-made magazine parts (on a ProMag that's 3). That's five parts total, so he's compliant.

 

We're in violent agreement -- you're just taking a math shortcut. It all comes down to the definition of "countable" - and that's driven by that BATFE list of 20 parts, not their country of origin.

 

Jim

[topmaul 42]

I guess there is more than one way to look at the problem.

[Navy87Guy 1]

I guess there is more than one way to look at the problem.

 

That was very graceful -- I yield!

 

Jim

[BullShark012 1]

Now we're talk'in... just got her tonight! Cleaned her up...shhh...went out back and fired a round! Of course, like butter thru that thick phone book from 35 yds.

Now: 1) the guy at my gun shop (as I picked it up) said no limit on mag size in Texas - he was out of 30 rd., but I got another Saiga 10 rd. from him for $24.95 just for grins. (he had no prob. telling me I could just plug and go w/ a 30 rd. mag in the Saiga here in Texas.) He was digging around to sell me a 30 rd. Saiga mag. but was out of stock.

 

Right now I've got her cleaned up and ready to go w/ 2, 10 rd. mags.... just need to goto the range to sight in.

Again, according to the guys at the shop - I can just go to town w/ any size mag I want here in TX. No legal issues.

 

If that's the case, I'm going to keep it stock right now.

 

Thanks again Guys!

 

BS012

 

p.s. my 'Certificate of Conformity' from the Russian factory said: "Extreme spread of impacts when firing four bullets at 100-m range (accuracy of fire) is 135 mm . (that's about 5.3 " I think).

Edited July 19, 2007 by BullShark012

[Navy87Guy 1]

Again, according to the guys at the shop - I can just go to town w/ any size mag I want here in TX. No legal issues.

 

If that's the case, I'm going to keep it stock right now.

 

I don't think your gunshop bubbas understand the law (have they even heard of 18 USC 922R?).

 

The fact that Texas has no limit on the size of a magazine that can be used in a semi-automatic centerfire rifle is nice. It does not, however, supersede Federal law - and specifically 18 USC 922R.

 

Once your rifle is compliant, it sounds like you'll be legal to use 30 rounds mags all you want in Texas (as opposed to Florida, which restricts hunting with a semi-auto centerfire to 5 rd mags). That doesn't mean, however, that you don't have to comply with 922R just because Texas is okay with 30 rounders. They are two different issues.

 

Jim

Edited July 19, 2007 by Navy87Guy

[BullShark012 1]

Thanks Jim, I tried to tell that guy....I thought that was too good to be true!

[nalioth 405]

I don't think your gunshop bubbas understand the law (have they even heard of 18 USC 922R?).

I'd not be so quick to call 'bubba'. What with the alphabet gang making new rulings and retracting old rulings all the time, WHO really knows the law? The guy is just trying to sell more stuff, don't fault him for that.

 

I once found a ATFE ruling on the web that covered "sporting rifles" and 'high cap mags' but I haven't been able to find it since (when I do, I'll throw my 2 cents into the pot)