SVD (Slightly Off topic)

[SaigaNoobie 66]

"Russian (U.S.S.R.), Dragunov, semiautomatic rifle, model SVD, cal. 7.62 x 54R, of Soviet manufacture, Soviet military issue only."~ from ATF Curios and Relics Definitions. ( http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/curios/sec2.htm )

 

So why can't we get a hold of these? I'm sure they cost $50 to manufacture in Russia. Issue them to the military, then ship them to America for $1,000 a pop, seems like a lucritive thing to me. Just a fun topic- Discuss

[john762 0]

"Russian (U.S.S.R.), Dragunov, semiautomatic rifle, model SVD, cal. 7.62 x 54R, of Soviet manufacture, Soviet military issue only."~ from ATF Curios and Relics Definitions. ( http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/curios/sec2.htm )

 

So why can't we get a hold of these? I'm sure they cost $50 to manufacture in Russia. Issue them to the military, then ship them to America for $1,000 a pop, seems like a lucritive thing to me. Just a fun topic- Discuss

No receivers that were originally select-fire (no matter the type of modification used to limit to semi-auto) are presently allowed into America. In the past-"yes", in the now-"no"! As for importing Russian parts-kits : "Who's your daddy now?" .

[sudaevpps43 31]

"Russian (U.S.S.R.), Dragunov, semiautomatic rifle, model SVD, cal. 7.62 x 54R, of Soviet manufacture, Soviet military issue only."~ from ATF Curios and Relics Definitions. ( http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/curios/sec2.htm )

 

So why can't we get a hold of these? I'm sure they cost $50 to manufacture in Russia. Issue them to the military, then ship them to America for $1,000 a pop, seems like a lucritive thing to me. Just a fun topic- Discuss

No receivers that were originally select-fire (no matter the type of modification used to limit to semi-auto) are presently allowed into America. In the past-"yes", in the now-"no"! As for importing Russian parts-kits : "Who's your daddy now?" .

 

It mainly comes down to money. If they thought they would make significantly more money in the U.S. by making an importable SVD type rifle, Izhmash would. They could easily produce a variant of the SVD that would be importable under the 'sporting purposes' requirements the ATF imposes, just like with their Saiga series rifles and shotguns (which are basically just AKs redesigned cosmetically to meet importing requirements of the U.S. and other countries). Heck, some versions of the TIGR variant of the SVD( http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/tigr.shtml ) Izhmash already makes are almost importable as is, except of course for the auto-sear. About all Izhmash would have to do is design a new trigger group that doesn't use an auto-sear, and then some minor modification to the receiver so it wouldn't be able to accept the standard SVD trigger group. But then there are the issues of self competition, cost, and demand.

 

The .308 Saiga rifles that Izhmash already exports to the U.S. are more or less the same class of rifle as the SVD, and an average U.S. shooter probably wouldn't see much difference between the two. So Izhmash probably thinks if they did try exporting a sporterized SVD to the U.S., it would probably just end up competing against the .308 Saiga.

 

As far as cost, dragunov type rifles use machined receivers and are made in lower volumes than stamped receiver kalashnikov based rifles like the .308 Saiga, and so would always be more expensive to make than Saigas. So Izhmash would have a lower profit margin on a sporterized SVD unless they were sold for a noticeably higher retail price than a .308 Saiga. But then the problem is the more something costs, the fewer that get sold. So Izhmash probably thinks it would just be a wash bringing in both .308 saigas and a sporterized SVDs, and that their total sales profits wouldn't change much.

 

Finally, with the 308 Saiga and Veprs already available in the U.S., Izhmash probably doesn't think there is enough room left in the market for another .308 class russian made semi-auto rifle.

 

About the only way I see a sporterized SVD getting imported into the U.S. these days, is if RAAC (the current Saiga line importer), or a big name importer like EAA, convinced Izhmash that they would be able to sell enough of them, and at a high enough price to more than offset any self-competition with the .308 Saigas Izhmash already sells here. That's the key, because Izhmash wouldn't consider it worthwhile to design and put a U.S. importable SVD into production (even though it would be pretty easy for them to do so), unless it would increase their total profits in the U.S. market.

Edited August 3, 2007 by Frogfoot

[SaigaNoobie 66]

Ah but there is no 7.62x54R Saiga.

[LESchwartz 9]

You are correct, Dragunov rifles are C&R. However, they only superficially resemble Saiga's -- actually, the internals are more like the SKS. Note, that Romanian PSL rifles are imported to the US and sometimes sold as "Dragunovs", however, they are not real Dragunovs.

 

As to why they can't be imported: The US & Russia entered into an agreement in the 1990's where only certain firearms could be imported to the US. Saigas were on the list, Dragunovs were not. Remember: Clinton + Ruger = ban on imported guns. Note that this agreement is above and beyond the "sporting test" mentioned above. For more info, see: http://tcc.export.gov/static/doc_exp_005371.asp.

 

Larry

Edited August 3, 2007 by LESchwartz

[LESchwartz 9]

Edited August 3, 2007 by LESchwartz

[shaneman153a 39]

God I had no idea ishmash made Tigr's. I'm about to move to the motherland and fly Hind-D's.

[G O B 3,516]

I think that the Tigr is specifically named as unimportable by some stupid trade agreement we signed with Russia. All of the gun bans are not "gun bans" they, are sometimes "import agreements".

[sudaevpps43 31]

Ah but there is no 7.62x54R Saiga.

 

 

Yes I know, what I meant was that a .308 Saiga and a 7.62x54R SVD are in the same general class of firearm (i.e. a self-loading rifle chambered for a true rifle cartridge, not an intermediate cartridge like the .223 or 7.62x39), and that the average american shooter (who doesn't worry or care about the differences between stamped vs. milled receivers, short-stroke vs. long stroke pistons, etc.), probably wouldn't think there was much difference between the two. A typical non-enthusiast shooter might even consider an SVD chambered in 7.62x54R (though SVDs are now also made in .308) to be bad choice compared to a .308 Saiga, simply because the 7.62x54R cartridge is virtually identical in caliber (.311 vs .308) and nearly identical in ballistics to the .308, while the available ammo variety is much more limited compared to the .308 winchester (though in favor of the 7.62x54R, its bulk ammo is usually a bit cheaper than bulk .308 ammo).

 

Going back to importability, I forgot to mention the agreement LESchwartz brought up which Russia signed in the 90s during the Yeltsin era. This agreement is entirely voluntary on the part of the Russians however, and as LESchwartz mentioned actually goes above and beyond the normal ATF "sporting requirements" on imported firearms, so Russia could quit the agreement any time they wanted, and there isn't anything the ATF could do about it as long the new firearm models being imported from Russia met the "sporting purposes" requirements. The SVD would still be excluded from importation though, because the ATF considers its auto-sear trigger group design to make it non-sporting, regardless of whatever cosmetic changes are done to the rifle.

 

Also, even with the current voluntary agreement Russia is following, there actually isn't anything to prevent a firearms import/export company in another country from purchasing firearms from Russia that are excluded in Russia's voluntary agreement with the U.S., and exporting them to the U.S. Again the only requirements being that the firearms must meet the usual BS "sporting purposes" requirements for importability. So right now a company, like say Sako in Finland (right next door to Russia), could buy SVDs from Izhmash, make whatever changes are necessary to get them to meet ATF "sporting purposes" import requirements (cosmetic changes, and of course a non auto-sear trigger group would have to be installed), and export them to the U.S., and it would be perfectly legal.

 

 

 

 

 

Shaneman153a, nah....... forget the Hind-D, you want the Hind-F. After all, why fly an attack helicopter with a puny 12.7mm gatling gun when you could fly one with a 30mm auto cannon.

 

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/...-8825t-0011.jpg

Edited August 4, 2007 by Frogfoot

[LESchwartz 9]

Also, even with the current voluntary agreement Russia is following, there actually isn't anything to prevent a firearms import/export company in another country from purchasing firearms from Russia that are excluded in Russia's voluntary agreement with the U.S., and exporting them to the U.S. Again the only requirements being that the firearms must meet the usual BS "sporting purposes" requirements for importability. So right now a company, like say Sako in Finland (right next door to Russia), could buy SVDs from Izhmash, make whatever changes are necessary to get them to meet ATF "sporting purposes" import requirements (cosmetic changes, and of course a non auto-sear trigger group would have to be installed), and export them to the U.S., and it would be perfectly legal.

 

You are correct . . . except that there is a corresponding trade embargo thingy on our end. In order to get real Dragunovs into the US, they would have to sit in a warehouse in the third country for five years.

 

First I've heard about the auto-sear being non-sporting . . . makes sense though in light of the recent Century PSL / safety sear debacle . . .

 

Larry

[sudaevpps43 31]

Also, even with the current voluntary agreement Russia is following, there actually isn't anything to prevent a firearms import/export company in another country from purchasing firearms from Russia that are excluded in Russia's voluntary agreement with the U.S., and exporting them to the U.S. Again the only requirements being that the firearms must meet the usual BS "sporting purposes" requirements for importability. So right now a company, like say Sako in Finland (right next door to Russia), could buy SVDs from Izhmash, make whatever changes are necessary to get them to meet ATF "sporting purposes" import requirements (cosmetic changes, and of course a non auto-sear trigger group would have to be installed), and export them to the U.S., and it would be perfectly legal.

 

You are correct . . . except that there is a corresponding trade embargo thingy on our end. In order to get real Dragunovs into the US, they would have to sit in a warehouse in the third country for five years.

 

First I've heard about the auto-sear being non-sporting . . . makes sense though in light of the recent Century PSL / safety sear debacle . . .

 

Larry

 

 

Hmm.............., I hadn't heard about the trade embargo part on the U.S. side. I assume this embargo is based on specific models of firearms, not on the importing country, otherwise SVDs coming from a country other than Russia would be importable right away if they had "sporting purposes" modifications. Even so, it seems like all an importer in another country would have to do is give a sporterized SVD a new model name designation to make it importable. After all, a semi-automatic AK from Romania technically can't be imported either, but they are sporterized in Romania and imported under the GP-WASR 10 model designation. So it seems like an importer based in a country other than Russia should be able to do something similar with the SVD.

 

The whole auto-sear thing is just another example of the ATF contradicting their own past decisions in their cointinuing efforts to increase import restrictions without congress actually passing any new laws. For many years the ATF considered a trigger group to be a full auto gun part only if it actually enabled machine gun fire (i.e. more than one shot fired with a single trigger pull). A trigger group with an auto-sear was judged to be no different than a non-auto sear trigger group if it didn't enbable anything other than semi-auto fire. But later on the ATF decided to claim that a semiautomatic auto-sear trigger group was easily convertible to enable full auto fire (though in fact a semiautomatic auto-sear trigger group isn't necessarily any easier to convert to full auto than a non auto-sear semiautomatic trigger group), and so wasn't sporting, which means that any rifle with an auto-sear trigger group was suddenly no longer importable. Which brings up the obvious question, why did the ATF consider rifles with auto-sear trigger groups to be perfectly importable before, and then suddenly change their minds after years of allowing import of said rifles? But of course logic has never been part of the ATF's vocabulary.

Edited August 4, 2007 by Frogfoot

[Twinsen 86]

We all know how many guys are willing to spend $1000 to get a gun that resembles a Dragunov. If they imported one it'd sell better than the Saiga-308 that has no military history.

[LESchwartz 9]

Also, even with the current voluntary agreement Russia is following, there actually isn't anything to prevent a firearms import/export company in another country from purchasing firearms from Russia that are excluded in Russia's voluntary agreement with the U.S., and exporting them to the U.S. Again the only requirements being that the firearms must meet the usual BS "sporting purposes" requirements for importability. So right now a company, like say Sako in Finland (right next door to Russia), could buy SVDs from Izhmash, make whatever changes are necessary to get them to meet ATF "sporting purposes" import requirements (cosmetic changes, and of course a non auto-sear trigger group would have to be installed), and export them to the U.S., and it would be perfectly legal.

 

You are correct . . . except that there is a corresponding trade embargo thingy on our end. In order to get real Dragunovs into the US, they would have to sit in a warehouse in the third country for five years.

 

Hmm.............., I hadn't heard about the trade embargo part on the U.S. side. I assume this embargo is based on specific models of firearms, not on the importing country, otherwise SVDs coming from a country other than Russia would be importable right away if they had "sporting purposes" modifications. Even so, it seems like all an importer in another country would have to do is give a sporterized SVD a new model name designation to make it importable. After all, a semi-automatic AK from Romania technically can't be imported either, but they are sporterized in Romania and imported under the GP-WASR 10 model designation. So it seems like an importer based in a country other than Russia should be able to do something similar with the SVD.

 

OK, perhaps "embargo" was little too strong of term. The 2005 Firearms reference says that "it is the policy of the United States to deny licenses and other approvals with respect to defense articles and defense services originating in certain countries or areas." So there's a "policy" or our end as well as a voluntary agreement on the Russian end.

 

As for the "5 year thing", there are "country of origin" rules in place. Here's another quote from the 2005 Firearms reference: "Applications for permits to import articles that were manufactured in ... a country or area proscribed under this section ... are importable as curios or relics under the provisions of 27 CFR 478.118, and meet the following criteria ... The articles have been stored for the five year period immediately prior to importation in a non-proscribed country or area." [Heavily edited for clarity.]

 

So it's not just a matter of Sako buying SVDs and bringing them in. They would have to sit in Finland for five years, then they would only be importable under the C&R rules. The same for Russian SKS and SVT rifles. But if a rifle is not on the C&R list and not on the approved list, it can't be imported. Thus "commercial" versions of the SVD (iirc it's called the "Tiger"), can no longer be imported under any circumstances.

 

Larry

 

PS: For more information, take a look at the 2005 Firearms Reference (pages 108 & 109) available on the ATF web site.

[sudaevpps43 31]

Also, even with the current voluntary agreement Russia is following, there actually isn't anything to prevent a firearms import/export company in another country from purchasing firearms from Russia that are excluded in Russia's voluntary agreement with the U.S., and exporting them to the U.S. Again the only requirements being that the firearms must meet the usual BS "sporting purposes" requirements for importability. So right now a company, like say Sako in Finland (right next door to Russia), could buy SVDs from Izhmash, make whatever changes are necessary to get them to meet ATF "sporting purposes" import requirements (cosmetic changes, and of course a non auto-sear trigger group would have to be installed), and export them to the U.S., and it would be perfectly legal.

 

You are correct . . . except that there is a corresponding trade embargo thingy on our end. In order to get real Dragunovs into the US, they would have to sit in a warehouse in the third country for five years.

 

Hmm.............., I hadn't heard about the trade embargo part on the U.S. side. I assume this embargo is based on specific models of firearms, not on the importing country, otherwise SVDs coming from a country other than Russia would be importable right away if they had "sporting purposes" modifications. Even so, it seems like all an importer in another country would have to do is give a sporterized SVD a new model name designation to make it importable. After all, a semi-automatic AK from Romania technically can't be imported either, but they are sporterized in Romania and imported under the GP-WASR 10 model designation. So it seems like an importer based in a country other than Russia should be able to do something similar with the SVD.

 

OK, perhaps "embargo" was little too strong of term. The 2005 Firearms reference says that "it is the policy of the United States to deny licenses and other approvals with respect to defense articles and defense services originating in certain countries or areas." So there's a "policy" or our end as well as a voluntary agreement on the Russian end.

 

As for the "5 year thing", there are "country of origin" rules in place. Here's another quote from the 2005 Firearms reference: "Applications for permits to import articles that were manufactured in ... a country or area proscribed under this section ... are importable as curios or relics under the provisions of 27 CFR 478.118, and meet the following criteria ... The articles have been stored for the five year period immediately prior to importation in a non-proscribed country or area." [Heavily edited for clarity.]

 

So it's not just a matter of Sako buying SVDs and bringing them in. They would have to sit in Finland for five years, then they would only be importable under the C&R rules. The same for Russian SKS and SVT rifles. But if a rifle is not on the C&R list and not on the approved list, it can't be imported. Thus "commercial" versions of the SVD (iirc it's called the "Tiger"), can no longer be imported under any circumstances.

 

Larry

 

PS: For more information, take a look at the 2005 Firearms Reference (pages 108 & 109) available on the ATF web site.

 

 

I see, so no matter what an SVD would actually have to be manufactured in a country other than Russia, in order for it to even be possible for it to be immediately importable to the U.S., without having to wait for five years, in addition of course to the usual "sporterization" modifications and new model name designation it would have to undergo. Well hell, since this is the case it would probably be easier to just try to get a U.S. manufacturer to start making SVDs. Maybe we should start a letter writing campaign to Arsenal Inc. in Nevada. If they can make AK pattern rifles they should be able to make SVDs, too.

Edited August 4, 2007 by Frogfoot

[saigaswat 0]

my brothers best freand woks in izmash i wonted to imopt some guns but dont know how, sure i can have them shiped here with like a basikalor something , but i dont know how to do it the right way ps a goooood prise with hook up for a SVD is about $400. my brother is paying $800 for rent for 1 bedroom appatment the pises in Russkia are Krazzy you cant buy a bb gun svd for $50 any more pss i can get a nikov AN from the factury but dont know how to get them here leagaly if you have some good info please email me @ simbaswat@hotmail.com

[scoutjoe 276]

my brothers best freand woks in izmash i wonted to imopt some guns but dont know how, sure i can have them shiped here with like a basikalor something , but i dont know how to do it the right way ps a goooood prise with hook up for a SVD is about $400. my brother is paying $800 for rent for 1 bedroom appatment the pises in Russkia are Krazzy you cant buy a bb gun svd for $50 any more pss i can get a nikov AN from the factury but dont know how to get them here leagaly if you have some good info please email me @ simbaswat@hotmail.com

 

 

[kresk 10,063]

my brothers best freand woks in izmash i wonted to imopt some guns but dont know how, sure i can have them shiped here with like a basikalor something , but i dont know how to do it the right way ps a goooood prise with hook up for a SVD is about $400. my brother is paying $800 for rent for 1 bedroom appatment the pises in Russkia are Krazzy you cant buy a bb gun svd for $50 any more pss i can get a nikov AN from the factury but dont know how to get them here leagaly if you have some good info please email me @ simbaswat@hotmail.com

 

Moscow is supposed to be the most expensive city to live in the world right now, so I can understand how the prices in Russia are getting out of hand. Although I'd love to see an AN94 in the US, chances of that are quite remote at present. Thought they were pretty much limited to some Special Forces in Russia.

 

Welcome to the forum...........

[sudaevpps43 31]

my brothers best freand woks in izmash i wonted to imopt some guns but dont know how, sure i can have them shiped here with like a basikalor something , but i dont know how to do it the right way ps a goooood prise with hook up for a SVD is about $400. my brother is paying $800 for rent for 1 bedroom appatment the pises in Russkia are Krazzy you cant buy a bb gun svd for $50 any more pss i can get a nikov AN from the factury but dont know how to get them here leagaly if you have some good info please email me @ simbaswat@hotmail.com

 

Shipping to the U.S. is easy. Just take whatever it is you want to ship to Mexico first, then stuff it in a bale of marijuana. It will then have a 94%-96% chance of making it into the U.S. unscathed. Don't worry about any of that boring import licensing and paperwork, federal import laws are really just guidelines anyway.

Edited August 5, 2007 by Frogfoot

[sggrosso 0]

"Russian (U.S.S.R.), Dragunov, semiautomatic rifle, model SVD, cal. 7.62 x 54R, of Soviet manufacture, Soviet military issue only."~ from ATF Curios and Relics Definitions. ( http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/curios/sec2.htm )

 

So why can't we get a hold of these? I'm sure they cost $50 to manufacture in Russia. Issue them to the military, then ship them to America for $1,000 a pop, seems like a lucritive thing to me. Just a fun topic- Discuss

Somewhere out there, I have seen a few on sale for around 1000-1200 for the real deal, not a romanian made one. But there is also British outfit that will ship it here as you specify for about 800-1000 US. You take the chance of losing it to customs to that way, I guess. Or you can find a way to get it shipped in pieces-I've gotten SVD parts from that place-find it under SVD or dragunov on an extended yahoo or google search. Good Luck and keep watching the other auction siter for them.