drsmith 0 Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 Hi Guys and Girls, i have been trawling through the forum for the past week or so looking at peoples set ups and customizations and i have to say i have been taken aback by the massive variety of set ups! It appears the Saiga 12 is rather versatile!... Anyway, to my point in question... being members of countless other forums and owners clubs etc. i know it can be a little tiresome when the same old questions pop up from time to time so i must first apologize if this is the case here... I am originally from the UK but i live here in the US with my US wife and gorgeous baby girl! ..USA...USA lol ;o) I have my firearms certificate and license in the UK so have been shooting a number of things for a fair while. We take bi monthly trips to the local MOD bases and shoot large bore... .303, .308, 7.62 etc.. and its great fun at 200-800 yards. Here in the US i have a Sig 229R as my regular 'do it all' gun chambered in .40 s&w... i love this gun! I also have a Taurus Millennium Pro also in .40 s&w for carry and in the truck etc.... However, its now time to get my first shotgun!!!! Having shot a few different guns since being here, from auto loading expensive items, to simple double barreled cheapo's, i don't really have a preference to the type of gun i am looking for. However, after much research and digesting the wealth of information on the internet, i settled on the Mossberg 500 tactical with pistol grip and M4 style multi positional stock. It feels good, i actually prefer the pistol grip to the standard stock and its just a very well made 'no frills' weapon. I was in my local gunsmith today and he is getting a few Saiga 12's in this weekend and offered me the chance to buy one, so i looked into them again as i have looked at them previously and would like some professional and experienced opinions please. I will use the gun down the range, but primarily its a home defense weapon, it will get the odd outing at a skeet range or the like so i would like it to be versatile in nature.... the mossberg looks great and is functional as already said, but i love the idea of having a saiga with so much more firepower for when a little more 'fun' is required! i guess its the caveman syndrome! i just want something that can throw that kind of firepower down range! even if i would never (hopefully!) have to use it in anger or for its main objective. If money was taken out of the equation, would you suggest the Mossberg 500 tactical, or the Saiga 12 as a home defense reliable shotgun that can also double up as a range / skeet gun on the odd occasion? So people know, i have never fired a pump action shotgun.... Thanks for the great website and forum! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 First, welcome to the board! Second, we are the Saiga-12 board so I can assume that most here will recommend the Siaga-12. Hoverer, I have seen such wide variation in the S-12 that I urge you to become familiar with your particular shotgun before relying on it for home defense. Most of the problems that this firearm may have are easily resolved, but "out of the box" experiences will vary. Once the problems are resolved you have what many consider one of the world's finest combat shotguns, and frankly, an investment. With a Mossberg 500 Tactical you have a relatively cheap pump shotgun that is more likely to function as-in. On the other hand it will always be a relatively cheap pump shotgun and never appreciate. It will not come near the performance of a well functioning Saiga-12 as a defensive arm. Also, while I know that it is de reguir to put a M4 stock on everything on the damn planet, most if these I have seen used on shotguns and for that matter AK's only exacerbate the cheek weld problem that many of these guns already have. Cheek weld is critical on a shotgun for proper usage, or again, for that matter a rapid action urban rifle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 If money was taken out of the equation, would you suggest the Mossberg 500 tactical, or the Saiga 12 as a home defense reliable shotgun that can also double up as a range / skeet gun on the odd occasion? So people know, i have never fired a pump action shotgun....Nothing wrong with having both. . . . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
frick 3 Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 (edited) Plain and simple. The Mossberg pump. Chances are it will always fire, as long as you are alive to work the action, and its maintained occasionally. Just like a revolver, vs a semi auto pistol. With a semi, its never a 100 percent certainty that it will function and reload. It could be the day the funk built up in the gas piston, or the magazine decides to burp, hell, you have two choices on the gas feed, DID YOU REMEMBER to set it to the proper number? I have a mossberg that I bought as my first gun with my FFL, then I sold it, that owner shot the hell out of it, he sold it to someone else, and I badgered him till he sold it back to me, probably 1000 shells fired and ten years later, and you know what, I put the original furniture back on, painted it flat black to cover all the finish wear and loss, sprayed out the action with some carb cleaner, re oiled it, and I have never had a problem with function. Still worried, buy a 590, the military model, with higher capacity, and some improved features. And, if you haven't solved your home defense with 8 rounds of buckshot or slugs, you should probably consider an alarm system, and a private guard outside your home. Its still way less expensive than a Saiga, but, money aside, you may want to consider a SPAS 12, which functions as both a semi, AND a pump, but at last check, the ones I saw were WELL over a 1000 dollars, IF, you can find one. And, don't confuse "Cheap" with "Inexpensive" as some do. A Mossberg is a bargain, some of the Chinese junk at 2/3 the price are bargains, but, I have seen a lot go back to the distributor, because they were cheap, and not a bargain. Don't let balls and bravado, overwhelm your brain. As for a dual purpose gun, add a longer barrel, and your 18" home defense gun becomes a skeet gun. And really, I don't think anybody here could state that a Saiga is a better option for hunting or Clay birds, seriously, its a great and novel weapon, but, its just not as ergonomically designed to be a dual use platform, as a design that was built from the ground up to be a hunting shotgun, and not primarily a tactical defense weapon. Edited September 5, 2008 by frick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 In addition, if you go with the pump, I would suggest the Remington 870 over the Mossburg. You will pay bit more but it is a far higher quality shotgun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gtnichols 51 Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 SAIGA 12 !!!!! or no soup for you,..! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
drsmith 0 Posted September 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2008 (edited) Well firstly, thank you for your responses and welcomes, i will try to address each one in turn: @Azrial - I agree that becoming familiar with your weapon of choice is the key factor here, which is why i will be enrolling in some home defense safety classes at my local gun club where i am a lifetime member with my family! Its awesome having a wife that loves to shoot too! haha.... @nalioth - Buying both is not a bad option, but at the moment it would be buying one as the other would simply sit idle due to my time constraints at work etc.. so hence why i am looking at just one shotgun for now as i tend to prefer doing my pistol shooting classes with my Sig. @frick - I agree that the mechanicals of the pump action seem to scream 'reliability' over anything that is auto, but with it being based upon the AK platform i thought that this may help to offset this fear? Anyway, i have thrown myself a curve ball, being the scientist and research based person i am i went over to my local gunshop that carries a shed load of shotguns and basically played with them, handling them to see how they felt, how they were balanced, how they fit my hands and shoulder etc.... i tried the mossberg tactical 500 with m4 stock and pistol grip.... errr i hate to say it but i didn't like it! haha after all that, i guess it was the looks and the versatility that drew me to it, but i tried another pistol gripped (with stock) shotgun to see if it was just than one, but due to my smaller hands the standard shotgun felt much much better! glad i know now before i ordered it!..... so i handled a few more, including the 590 tactical long barrel, it felt a little unbalanced in my hands... so i kept on trying and picked out one at random and not knowing what they were or how much they cost and i chose one.... or at least the one i wanted as the state of WA are no longer issuing AFL's so it would have to be a joint purchase with my wife!.. it turned out to be the shorter barreled Remington 870 @ $379! it felt great, it was all in black with a more polymer based coating on the stock and pump handle but it felt like an extension of my arm! awesome stuff... sadly they didnt have any Saiga's in stock for me to test so i tried an AK clone and it was nice to be honest! but for the price, the Remington 870 is the front runner so far! With regards to the longer barrels, can the barrels of the Remington 870 simply be popped in and out at home? or does it have to be done by a gunsmith with specialist tools? Does anyone want to throw anymore guns into the frame? i quite liked some of the Benalis (if thats the correct name?!) Again thanks for the responses and advice, its greatly appreciated! Edited September 6, 2008 by drsmith Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted September 6, 2008 Report Share Posted September 6, 2008 With regards to the longer barrels, can the barrels of the Remington 870 simply be popped in and out at home? or does it have to be done by a gunsmith with specialist tools? Does anyone want to throw anymore guns into the frame? i quite liked some of the Benalis (if thats the correct name?!) I suspect if you found an 18.5"/47cm bbl Mossy 500 that hadn't been 'mall ninja'd' ( iow, one that had a standard stock on it ) you'd have been just as pleased. They are less expensive than 870s, but no less reliable. The 590 is designed at military request, and as such, is a big long honkin' shotgun. Most modern American made shotguns are able to have their barrels changed by the end user. N Quote Link to post Share on other sites
steve 1 Posted September 6, 2008 Report Share Posted September 6, 2008 My first hunting expereance was with a Remingtion 870 and like you it felt natual to me it came up on target so fast, it was scary. Yes you can change barrels on that thing with no tools just your hands. I own a 28 inch barrel with choke inserts, a 21 inch smooth bore slug barrel and a 24 inch rifeled barrel with a scope mount. Its my do everything gun. BUT when it comes to play time you cant beat the S-12. I saw one in a store and I searched this sight to find out more before I purchased mine. If you ever buy one this is the place to find out everything you ever wanted to know about the Saiga. I learned a lot about my Sagias with the help of the members of this site. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
frick 3 Posted September 8, 2008 Report Share Posted September 8, 2008 I have never heard anything bad about 870's, though I do know that most armorers who are "Copifying" them, will make some changes before using them for police duty. My brother uses his 870 for three gun, and he said the best feeling is when one guy who has a tricked out Wilson Combat 870, jams or misfeeds at least once in every competition, and he ends up beating him. Myself, I have had a number of Mossberg products, and I feel that they are a better bargain than an 870, only because they have always served me well as well as I think any bad reputation they may have, is undeserved. Especially if you step up to a 590, but then again, if you want to bayonet as well as buckshot your home invader, you can have that choice. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jsp 1 Posted September 8, 2008 Report Share Posted September 8, 2008 (edited) I have owned both the Mossberg 500 and 590 years ago. I had problems shooting 3" magnum loads in both of them. Sometimes the action would freeze up on me and it's not because im short stroking the pump. I had to get rid of them. I then purchased my first Remington 870 Police Magnum and all I can say is that it is the smoothest of all the pump shotguns I have shot. I liked it so much that I ended up buying a 2nd Police Magnum because of a good deal. And yes, you can take off the barrel in less then 10 seconds with no tools. So my personal advice to you if you plan to get a pump, get a Remington 870 Police Magnum. Make sure the receiver says POLICE MAGNUM on the side of it. If you plan to get a reliable, fast loading semi-auto shotgun, get a Saiga 12. I love mine! Edited September 8, 2008 by jsp Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted September 9, 2008 Report Share Posted September 9, 2008 Saiga-12. Not to be an alarmist, but you'll always be able to get a mossy 500 cheap... Saigas have been on the price rocket to space. I was mad that I spent $515 shipped for my first s12... now, $630 is about right... it's been 5 months. That's nuts. Once you have it, you'll love it. 95% of all mods to the gun can be done at home easily. Try getting 20 2 3/4" slugs into an 18" pump gun.... heck, try and get 10 in there. If you get a Saiga 12, get a polychoke It makes WORLDS of difference for shooting clays. Conversions are relatively simple. Oh, btw, where in the USA are you located? Welcome to the Forums Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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