Izhmash/Legion/Tromix AK-103

[BobAsh 582]

I'll post more close-ups later, but I just brought this home tonight. Besides being a limited edition gun by Tony, it has all the desireable features including dimples, AK74 brake, cleaning rod etc.

 

 

Edited November 29, 2008 by BobAsh

[jrance@iacwds.com 716]

Very nice Bob! Keep the pics coming as I have a few of the SGL10's that I am thinking about what to do with.

1911

[BobAsh 582]

Good man! They are going to very valuable.

[wlnt 2]

I'll post more close-ups later, but I just brought this home tonight. Besides being a limited edition gun by Tony, it has all the desireable features including dimples, X/Y stamping AK74 brake, cleaning rod etc.

 

 

 

 

Bob,

Believe me, I am not trying to embarrass you (that would be like the student calling the teacher wrong) but I thought the X,Y stampings usually refers to the markings like these;

 

 

louielouie

[BobAsh 582]

louie,

 

That's the Y stamp for the 3rd hole...Is that the one that people are clamoring for? The Arsenal gun just has it over the two "legal" holes.

 

Sorry for any confusion.

[wlnt 2]

louie,

 

That's the Y stamp for the 3rd hole...Is that the one that people are clamoring for? The Arsenal gun just has it over the two "legal" holes.

 

Sorry for any confusion.

 

Bob,

This is the one. I am lucky that mine does not have a pin or it would be illegal. Apparentyly Saiga doesn't mind substituting military receivers if the Saiga "Sporting" assembly line runs short of receivers.

 

The really unique thing about this one is that it not only has the Y and dimple but also does not have the cross hatched box that they usually do to cover up some military marking. That means I can take it as close to an original AK103 as anyone can get.

 

I am converting it toward toward the AK103 ( at least as far as my budget allows).

 

louielouie

Edited November 29, 2008 by louielouie

[BobAsh 582]

I see.

 

I'm certainly no expert on all the variations of AK's. Thanks.

[schadenfreude 2]

Bob,

This is the one. I am lucky that mine does not have a pin or it would be illegal. Apparentyly Saiga doesn't mind substituting military receivers if the Saiga "Sporting" assembly line runs short of receivers.

 

The really unique thing about this one is that it not only has the Y and dimple but also does not have the cross hatched box that they usually do to cover up some military marking. That means I can take it as close to an original AK103 as anyone can get.

 

I am converting it toward toward the AK103 ( at least as far as my budget allows).

 

louielouie

 

I have it the other 2 ways. 1 has dimples and an X stamp and the cross hatch over the triangle marking and one has dimples X and Y stamp and still has the cross hatch.

 

Seems like the assembly line is a clusterfuck......

[wlnt 2]

I see.

 

I'm certainly no expert on all the variations of AK's. Thanks.

 

Bob,

 

I just caught what you said on the X and Y before someone else did.

 

I admire your work and what you have done for this forum.

 

I am certainly not trying to give you a hard time.

 

Really I do appreciate your expertise, I just love the "Emticons".

 

louielouie

[BobAsh 582]

No worries louie! I've never claimed to be an expert on any subject.

[BobAsh 582]

Louie,

 

I've done a little research and I think you might have an issue with that gun. I mentioned the X-Y stampings around the FCG because they are a reinforcement, and most Saiga's don't have them.

 

However, having the 3rd "Y" puts you in kind of a legal quandary, IMO. 2 reasons:

 

1) Since it has the 3rd hole location marked & reinforced on the receiver, it was clearly manufactured as a machine gun receiver and then unwittingly used for an import sporter. In this "interpretation" you have an illegal machine gun.

2) The ATF has ruled constructive possession for a guy that had an AK receiver AND a drill jig for marking out the third hole. The receiver was undrilled. The ATF ruled that he was in possession of a machine gun.

 

Not trying to scare you bro...but this research interests me and I like to dig into gun laws.

[BobAsh 582]

Also I want to mention that sales of these Tromix weapons is not my intention.

 

In fact, all 10 are spoken for, I was just showing mine off.

[BobAsh 582]

More close-ups. Check out the fit & finish. The trigger break is the best on any AK I've tried.

[jrance@iacwds.com 716]

Thanks for the pictures Bob! That certainly turned out well and has my appetite thoroughly whetted.

1911

[schadenfreude 2]

WOW! Such a beautiful rifle. I wish I could afford the hand guard and muzzle piece for mine.

 

 

I am a bit concerned about the extra Y marking making the rifle illegal. That would really screw me.

 

i sent a note to Clyde at RAA to get some input on this.

Edited December 5, 2008 by schadenfreude

[TonyRumore 1,332]

I don't think it's technically "illegal" at the moment. But I would think twice about running off at the mouth on every website about how your super rare and collectible Saiga has a receiver that "came right off the machine gun line at Izhmash" . That's just looking for ATF attention....not the kind of attention you want.

 

Tony

[jrance@iacwds.com 716]

WOW! Such a beautiful rifle. I wish I could afford the hand guard and muzzle piece for mine.

 

 

I am a bit concerned about the extra Y marking making the rifle illegal. That would really screw me.

 

i sent a note to Clyde at RAA to get some input on this.

I wouldn't bother calling Clyde at RAA if I were you. Just an informed idea.

 

1911

[schadenfreude 2]

I hear ya but I guess my point is that if it's a problem....... then I want rid of the problem and a replacement rifle if it is indeed a problem. Does that make sense?

[TonyRumore 1,332]

If the ATF doesn't care, or doesn't know about it, then it's no problem. But....you basically have a full auto drill template stamped on the side of your receiver.

[14GDHPs4ME 0]

I was under the impression, from reading the "dimples" sticky at the top of the page that this extra "Y" was simply a desirable feature that made it a little more rare. No one ever mentioned anywhere in that thread that it indicated some sort of illegal characteristics about the rifle. Tony...how many of these have you seen? Are they as rediculously rare as we're led to believe, and does anyone else have any further information on this subject?

[BobAsh 582]

The X-Y reinforcement around the FCG pins (as shown on my gun) IS a desirable feature. The third "Y" stamp marks the illegal 3rd hole, so obviously it's problematic. It is more rare, because it is a mis-marketed Machine giun Receiver. Tony nor I have ever seen one in person.

[14GDHPs4ME 0]

If it's not drilled, and no full-auto parts are installed (mind you, I don't know the first thing about how that all works), how could it be illegal to own? If a guy purchased such a firearm from a FFL dealer (after being legally imported), wouldn't it be very difficult to place that blame on the buyer? I'm quite surprised to hear that they're so rare that you gents haven't seen one.

 

Forgive my curiosity, but the ongoing quest to understand these rifles is incredibly exciting to me.

[ThirtyCal 0]

The X-Y reinforcement around the FCG pins (as shown on my gun) IS a desirable feature. The third "Y" stamp marks the illegal 3rd hole, so obviously it's problematic. It is more rare, because it is a mis-marketed Machine giun Receiver. Tony nor I have ever seen one in person.

 

Just for the sake of historical perspective, Saiga's aren't the first AK's to come into the country with the extra Y stamp. All SAR 1's that came into the country (starting about 2001) had the Y:

 

 

I dont' know about SAR 2's and 3's, but I assume they all used this same receiver. I believe there were tens of thousands of these rifles imported between '01 and '05(?). Also, the recently imported STG-2000's (basically a really nice WASR) has the Y stamp too:

 

 

I don't know how many of these have come into the country, but they were cheap so I'd imagine their import numbers were pretty high.

 

And then of course you've got the tens of thousands of WASR2's, 3's and 10's that have come into the country since about 2005. I don't know how many cargo containers of WASR's have been brought into the country by Century Arms, but you know it's gotta be a big big number (WASR's have been the cheapest & most available AK's at every gunshow for the last 3 years). I think all of these were Y'd too:

 

 

So, when it comes down to it, the ATF would basically have to ban the majority of AK's imported into this country since 2001 if they were gonna start nit-picking about the Y stamp - We're talking about huge numbers here.

 

None of us know what the ATF is gonna do - so it would be dumb to make any assumptions about what is or isn't going to be "legal" by some future ATF standards yet to be written... But I can say that if they ban AK's based on the Y stamp, this would be a huge and unprecedented attack considering the number of rifles that would be affected.

 

So I'm not going to get worried about it.

 

As for how rare the dimpled and Y'd Saigas are? They are really rare. I'm just spitballing here based on my personal observations over the past year-and-a-half (having handled somewhere around one-hundred different Saigas in 7.62 and 5.56 caliber), here's how I'd break it down: First, I'd say that dimpled Saiga's represent about 1/10th of the overall population of 7.62 and 5.56 Saiga's imported in 2006. And of those dimpled Saiga's, I'd say that 1/10th of those had the extra Y stamp. So for whatever it's worth, I'd make a somewhat educated guess that so-called "dimpled + Y" Saigas represent somewhere in the neighborhood of 1% of the overall population of 7.62 and 5.56 Saigas imported in 2006. We'd have to ask RAA how many 7.62 and 5.56 Saiga's were imported in 2006 to get an idea of the raw number of dimpled + Y Saiga's are out there. But as an example, let's just make up a reasonable number and say that total number of imported Saigas in 2006 was 20K units. At a 1:100 ratio, that would mean that only 200 of the dimpled + Y Saigas exist in the US, which would make them about 5 times more rare than the Arsenal/Legion SGL-10. Again this is purely a guess based on a single person's observations of gun shows around the Pacific NW, but I don't think it's a completely unreasonable estimation.

 

For about a year I've been tracking the dimpled + Y'd Saigas that have show up in forums across the web. So far I've observed a total of 13 known examples (and about 3 more that Viking Kitty claimed to have but I never verified). Every one of the known examples is a 2006 import, with serial numbers falling within a range of about 4000 units, which would tend to support the "Venezuelan Overrun" speculation that has circulated over the past year. I have no idea if the story about "military overrun receiver beings mixed in with civilian factory production lines" is true, but if you look at the timing of the 100K unit AK-103 order from Hugo Chavez in 2006, it would seem to fit:

 

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1651709/posts

 

Even if this is true, there is nothing inherently illegal about them. They are the same Saiga rifles that RAA has been legally importing for years, with a Y stamp that has been coming in on Romanian rifles since at least 2001. But of course if it is true, it would certainly make these rifles the "most real" Russian AK's that have ever come into the country wearing the Saiga brand - after all, these were supposed to go to Hugo Chavez! That's flippin cool, and is something you can't say about the Legion SGL-10's!

 

This is just my personal opinion, but I believe that these "dimpled + Y" Saigas are the most desirable and rare Saigas of all, and I don't think it's likely that the ATF would ban tens of thousands of imported AK's based solely on the presence of a Y stamp. If they did, it would be an action of unprecedented proportions that would certainly change the landscape of gun ownership rights in the US. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but alot of people woudl be affected and a big, big stink would result.

 

And by the way, for those who haven't seen any, here's a couple I'm buidling now (get a good look at 'em Mr. ATF man ):

 

 

-Thirtycal

Edited December 6, 2008 by ThirtyCal

[TonyRumore 1,332]

It would appear then, that the ATF doesn't care if the 3rd hole is stamped that way. Sounds like a non-issue.

 

Tony

[gtnichols 51]

Tony,

what are the plans for Izhmash/Legion/Tromix AK-103 #1 and numbers 3 - 10?

Just curious.

[14GDHPs4ME 0]

ThirtyCal, thank you so much for that information.

[ThirtyCal 0]

The X-Y reinforcement around the FCG pins (as shown on my gun) IS a desirable feature. The third "Y" stamp marks the illegal 3rd hole, so obviously it's problematic. It is more rare, because it is a mis-marketed Machine giun Receiver. Tony nor I have ever seen one in person.

 

For about a year I've been tracking the dimpled + Y'd Saigas that have show up in forums across the web. So far I've observed a total of 13 known examples (and about 3 more that Viking Kitty claimed to have but I never verified). Every one of the known examples is a 2006 import, with serial numbers falling within a range of about 4000 units...

 

-Thirtycal

 

I have to follow up with my original message because I wasn't exactly accurate with my numbers. The 13 known "dimpled+Y" Saigas fall in a range of about 5500 units (not 4000 as I said). The approximate serial range is:

 

H06100800 - H06106500

 

By the way, I believe the serial number breaks down like this:

 

H - Civilian production, Saiga (L is Civilian production, Legion)

06 - Manufacturing year

1 - Unknown (maybe a production group number or caliber designator?)

0xxxx - unit number

 

If anyone has a dimpled+Y saiga that doesn't fall into this range, please post here.

 

thanks-

Thirtycal

Edited December 6, 2008 by ThirtyCal

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Really nice rifle Bob! ..and Tony...I wish I could have snagged one of those. I'll be keeping my eyes peeled.

 

Good post Thirtycal! Thanks for sharing.

So I guess I can pull mine back out from under the bed now?

+1 on 2006 BTW and serial number...H06104***

 

One thing I think is strange though....These guns that came with the dimpled receivers, some with the extra Y...They're supposedly "military" receivers, but they don't have the hole cut for the PG bushing.

 

And another thing...The only ones I have seen that have what look to me like "military" barrels, I say this because they are already milled for the lower HG retainer like the pics I'm including below, have NOT been on dimpled or Y stamped receivers, and DO have the hole for the PG bushing.

Seems to me it should be the other way around...

 

[schadenfreude 2]

+1 on 2006 BTW and serial number...H06104***

[ThirtyCal 0]

Really nice rifle Bob! ..and Tony...I wish I could have snagged one of those. I'll be keeping my eyes peeled.

 

Good post Thirtycal! Thanks for sharing.

So I guess I can pull mine back out from under the bed now?

+1 on 2006 BTW and serial number...H06104***

 

One thing I think is strange though....These guns that came with the dimpled receivers, some with the extra Y...They're supposedly "military" receivers, but they don't have the hole cut for the PG bushing.

 

And another thing...The only ones I have seen that have what look to me like "military" barrels, I say this because they are already milled for the lower HG retainer like the pics I'm including below, have NOT been on dimpled or Y stamped receivers, and DO have the hole for the PG bushing.

Seems to me it should be the other way around...

 

 

Regarding the mistmatched build parts and features. I know there are folks here (like Ted Marhsall) who have actually visited the Izhmash factory and can probably give some insight about how the AK-100 series production lines work - but I can make a guess and suggest that the components are just stored in bins and the "next one" is chosen without regard as to whether or not it matches the rest of the parts. Keep in mind that the Saiga production line feeds civilian production in other parts of the word, like Europe. These are the M series rifles like the M3, which are configured with pistol grips, and normal AK handguards, which might be the reason you found a Saiga with a barrel already notched and a receiver cut for PG. These might be M3 parts - still civilian, but not necessarily meant for import into the US (but still legal of course).

 

BTW, I noticed your gasblock is punch pressed just like the real AK-103's. This is the 'new' barrel fixtures attachment technique (as opposed to pins). I believe this is a production cost reduction technique.

 

-Thirtycal

Edited December 6, 2008 by ThirtyCal