Effectiveness of the .223

[PinkFloyd 63]

So I've been reading up on the actual lethality of the .223 Remington round and I've got a few questions that I wonder if y'all could answer. I'd understand if you can't. Basically I want to build a sniper rifle and I'm wondering if I should go buy a .308 or a .223.

 

My questions are as follows:

1. Can a .223 AP round actually penetrate body armor and if so how much? (I realize this may be an inappropriate questions so if you don't feel comfortable answering just tell me and I'll take it down, I'm not looking for a legality issue here).

 

2. What's the longest barreled Saiga I can get in .223 and what kind of accuracy can I expect with it?

 

3. What's a good rugged quality scope I can put on it.

 

4. Can anyone suggest some good quality ammo I can benchmark it with? I'm shooting mostly black hills and surplus NATO ammo, along with some reloads I bought that seem pretty hot thru my short .223 and my Sigs. I also have some Fiocchi Vmax that seems to behave quite well. Anyone know anything better?

 

Thanks; this info is going to help a lot when I start a couple projects I'm working on. I am in fact working on something I hope to sell to the community eventually, but I'm not disclosing any information apart from the fact that the Saiga .223 will be an integral part of the system, lest I get anyone's hopes up and can't deliver a quality product. I won't take something to market that I can't get behind 115%.

 

Floyd

[superA 289]

So I've been reading up on the actual lethality of the .223 Remington round and I've got a few questions that I wonder if y'all could answer. I'd understand if you can't. Basically I want to build a sniper rifle and I'm wondering if I should go buy a .308 or a .223.

 

My questions are as follows:

1. Can a .223 AP round actually penetrate body armor and if so how much? (I realize this may be an inappropriate questions so if you don't feel comfortable answering just tell me and I'll take it down, I'm not looking for a legality issue here).

 

2. What's the longest barreled Saiga I can get in .223 and what kind of accuracy can I expect with it?

 

3. What's a good rugged quality scope I can put on it.

 

4. Can anyone suggest some good quality ammo I can benchmark it with? I'm shooting mostly black hills and surplus NATO ammo, along with some reloads I bought that seem pretty hot thru my short .223 and my Sigs. I also have some Fiocchi Vmax that seems to behave quite well. Anyone know anything better?

 

Thanks; this info is going to help a lot when I start a couple projects I'm working on. I am in fact working on something I hope to sell to the community eventually, but I'm not disclosing any information apart from the fact that the Saiga .223 will be an integral part of the system, lest I get anyone's hopes up and can't deliver a quality product. I won't take something to market that I can't get behind 115%.

 

Floyd

 

 

 

What Black Hills and surplus NATO are you shooting you future rifle with? The next post will be from my cat 23b1[=ekw444444444444444444444444444444444ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff4E

8WM,$

kI[;5[ZA

[Twinsen 86]

1. A .223 round will be effective for only 400 yards with a 20" barrel. Expect any armor penetration to only be possible when much closer than that, as at 401 yards punching bare flesh effectively is out the window. If you consider sniping to be 400 yards or less... I have a bridge that I can offer at a low low price of $100,000.

 

2. No.

 

Go .308 if you want to stay on the small side of things. But finding AP .308 isn't the easiest thing in the world. What .308 will do to ceramic body armor plates is equivalent to poking one with your finger.

 

If you want AK, distance, and armor penetration, go with a PSL. 7.62x54R has AP ammo available. They aren't target guns by a long shot, but they're not anything to scoff at either.

[dobravery 49]

I would expect .308 AP would be available to those who are legally entitled to snipe a human being.

I hope that clarifies things.

[MesaCranker 0]

ammunitiontogo.com has many different calibers of AP ammunition.

[PinkFloyd 63]

1. A .223 round will be effective for only 400 yards with a 20" barrel. Expect any armor penetration to only be possible when much closer than that, as at 401 yards punching bare flesh effectively is out the window. If you consider sniping to be 400 yards or less... I have a bridge that I can offer at a low low price of $100,000.

 

2. No.

 

Go .308 if you want to stay on the small side of things. But finding AP .308 isn't the easiest thing in the world. What .308 will do to ceramic body armor plates is equivalent to poking one with your finger.

 

If you want AK, distance, and armor penetration, go with a PSL. 7.62x54R has AP ammo available. They aren't target guns by a long shot, but they're not anything to scoff at either.

 

Well I'm trying to minimize recoil; I guess the PSL's have fairly minimal recoil but I also want to use a readily gun because what I'm going to start selling will be something one adds to the gun, or rather adds the gun to the device.

 

For that matter is there a easy way of measuring felt recoil in some measurable units like Newtons? I suppose I could put the butt of the gun up against an object of known mass and see how far the recoil pushes said mass, then use that to find the force the rifle pushes with...

[dobravery 49]

You should look up green tip/SS109/M855 .223 ammo. It is available to the public and is designed to pierce commie steel helmets at 300yds (if Im not mistaken).

[MCASgt New River 10,036]

So I've been reading up on the actual lethality of the .223 Remington round and I've got a few questions that I wonder if y'all could answer. I'd understand if you can't. Basically I want to build a sniper rifle and I'm wondering if I should go buy a .308 or a .223.

 

My questions are as follows:

1. Can a .223 AP round actually penetrate body armor and if so how much? (I realize this may be an inappropriate questions so if you don't feel comfortable answering just tell me and I'll take it down, I'm not looking for a legality issue here).

 

2. What's the longest barreled Saiga I can get in .223 and what kind of accuracy can I expect with it?

 

3. What's a good rugged quality scope I can put on it.

 

4. Can anyone suggest some good quality ammo I can benchmark it with? I'm shooting mostly black hills and surplus NATO ammo, along with some reloads I bought that seem pretty hot thru my short .223 and my Sigs. I also have some Fiocchi Vmax that seems to behave quite well. Anyone know anything better?

 

Thanks; this info is going to help a lot when I start a couple projects I'm working on. I am in fact working on something I hope to sell to the community eventually, but I'm not disclosing any information apart from the fact that the Saiga .223 will be an integral part of the system, lest I get anyone's hopes up and can't deliver a quality product. I won't take something to market that I can't get behind 115%.

 

Floyd

 

First off why you would consider a "varmit" round sniper quality material is beyond me unless

your an urban sniper, ie swat ect, and worried about collateral damage. In the Marine Corps we are taught 2 in the chest and one on the head because even in a CQB enviroment the 5.56/.223 is a weak round...a varmit round.

 

Between your two choices the minimum I would use is a .308 but I'd look at better more recognized calibers

such as a .300win mag, .338lapua, 7mm rem mag, 30-06, and lastly the all time favorite .50BMG

 

To answer your other questions:

1) Yes, a 5.56/.223 can penetrate body armor and soft skinned vehicles quite well depending

on the distance. The class of body armor would depend on "how much" if any.

 

2) Barrel length on the saiga shouldn't be an issue if your looking for a "sniper" type weapon.

 

3) Scopes up to the task is also VERY dependant on how much $$ you want to throw at the situation.

Good glass can often exceed the cost of the weapon 2-3x.

 

4) Good quality ammo is available from most of the big name brands. If your capable and want

to roll your own, reload, I'm fairly certain your best groups will be here. Comparing Black Hills and

NATO ammo is like real Crab meat VS Walmart imitation Crab meat...there completely different loads,

tolerances, pressures ect.

 

Hope this helped.

[Paulry 50]

Check this out:

 

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1932647

[evi1joe 1]

I've heard of military using the 77gr rounds in sniping roles as far out as 600-800 yards, but that's a 20" bbl. For sniper range and accuracy, the .308 would be the way to go since it'd be much less affected by wind, etc. I do worry about the kick of a Saiga .308 though (seeing as how it's fairly light).

 

1. Can a .223 AP round actually penetrate body armor and if so how much?

I'd say inside 50-100 yards it'll eat through most Type I thru III armor (without a plate--but most armored personnel have plates!!). 100-200 I would think that even if it doesn't penetrate, the blow alone would incapacitate them for awhile. Beyond 200-250, I don't think it'd make it through any of the II, III or IV stuff...since by then it's bled off so much speed. The key would be to go for headshots if you were using a .223rd.

 

2. What's the longest barreled Saiga I can get in .223 and what kind of accuracy can I expect with it?

Seems like 20" is the longest I've seen standard.

 

3. What's a good rugged quality scope I can put on it.

Depends if you're thinking of spending $200 or $1000. Leopolds, Trijicons, etc., all make great, pricey scopes; Simmons and Burris (?), etc, make some good affordable ones. Go to the optics section of ar15.com for suggestions on more affordable, well-built scopes.

 

4. Can anyone suggest some good quality ammo I can benchmark it with? I like the Hornady 75gr MATCH ammo (non-moly)--with a ridiculously overpowerful 20X leupold, I was shooting 1.5" groups at 300 yards with my 16.5" Colt AR (the scope belongs to a friend who has it mounted on his 20" 6.8mm AR).

[PinkFloyd 63]

Okay so it looks like there's a pretty common consensus that a .308 is more appropriate for what I want this rifle for. I kind of figured as much... I was hoping .223 would be fine because I have several tens of thousands of rounds of it around haha, and I don't own any guns in 308. I really should sell my 30-06 Remington 700 and pickup a 308 instead.

 

Anyone want to buy a 30-06 R700? Comes with a scope

 

I'm thinking next weekend I'm going to go and pick up a 308 Saiga.