CCW and Reloads Legalities

[Stansplace 414]

I keep hearing that if you have a concealed permit and are involved in a shooting, and are found to be using reloads, even if mass produced, you could be liable in some way. I have heard this from two people who are into this type of thing pretty heavily and I do respect them, but I am at a loss as to what they may be referring to. Has anyone heard something along these lines?

[nalioth 405]

A good shoot is a good shoot.

 

If it's 'questionable', the prosecutor is gonna pick at anything s/he can.

[yakdung 2,926]

I believe you could possibly be referring to a 1995 Guns Magazine article by Massad Ayoob. Based on his opinion, I would not carry reloads in my carry weapon ever. I remember reading the same such thing many years ago and found this article for you to ponder.

http://www.survivaldigest.com/2009/03/fact...-a-defense-gun/

Good Luck,

Yakdung

[Juggernaut 11,054]

I use the same ammo as our local Sheriff Dept....

That way it can not be deemed inhumane....

 

Also less likely to have a K-b

[mstranglr 9]

This is covered in both my California and Utah CCW permit classes. They strongly recommend against using reloads in CCW guns. Although armed citizens are not being convicted for using reloads, the issue is brought up against the CCW citizen who uses them as standard practice. Civil or criminal cases will not be solely determined by a singular issue like ammunition (unless illegal), but realize that the type of ammunition may be a factor in your case, especially in the discovery process.

 

Some examples of arguments used in court concerning reloads;

 

"He makes his own special bullets at home to carry on the street because he clearly believes that factory self defense ammo is not deadly enough"

 

"You stated that you follow all firearm safety rules diligently and have read the factory manual on the proper operation of your gun, yet the manual for your gun clearly says to NEVER use hand-loaded ammunition. Your actions show that you, in fact, did not hold safety in high regard as you claimed"

 

 

Safely loaded reloads are great for practice, but may be more trouble than they are worth for CCW carry. Besides, many of the factory offerings of today perform very well.

[Stansplace 414]

This is covered in both my California and Utah CCW permit classes. They strongly recommend against using reloads in CCW guns. Although armed citizens are not being convicted for using reloads, the issue is brought up against the CCW citizen who uses them as standard practice. Civil or criminal cases will not be solely determined by a singular issue like ammunition (unless illegal), but realize that the type of ammunition may be a factor in your case, especially in the discovery process.

 

Some examples of arguments used in court concerning reloads;

 

"He makes his own special bullets at home to carry on the street because he clearly believes that factory self defense ammo is not deadly enough"

 

"You stated that you follow all firearm safety rules diligently and have read the factory manual on the proper operation of your gun, yet the manual for your gun clearly says to NEVER use hand-loaded ammunition. Your actions show that you, in fact, did not hold safety in high regard as you claimed"

 

 

Safely loaded reloads are great for practice, but may be more trouble than they are worth for CCW carry. Besides, many of the factory offerings of today perform very well.

 

I can understand home loads, maybe, but I am referring to the reloads that are manufactured by people who make reloads their business and sell hundreds of thousands of rounds annually. They are still reloads, but have been picked up at local gun shows or ordered online. What are your thoughts on these?

[nalioth 405]

I can understand home loads, maybe, but I am referring to the reloads that are manufactured by people who make reloads their business and sell hundreds of thousands of rounds annually. They are still reloads, but have been picked up at local gun shows or ordered online. What are your thoughts on these?

Those are considered "commercial ammunition".

 

 

The "reloads" referred to by Mr. Ayoob are the hardened lead semiwadcutters with the "X" in the tip and similar "home made" offerings.

[Azrial 1,091]

As a civilian you either have a reason to use deadly force, or you do not. The only reason to shoot another person in most states is to kill them. Unless your state law differs, I think that such thinking is grasping at legal straws.

 

I don't care what Ayoob says. I did not care when he started writing way over his head in Black Belt Magazine and I do not care now.

[Stansplace 414]

Thanks for the info guys, even thought I have thousands of rounds of reman or reloads in JHP, whatever you want to call it, I think I will now go buy several boxes, or more, of some nasty commercial stuff for carry. Never have enough right. Hell I can even use this article to appease the wife as to why I am bringing even more ammo home. Works out fine all the way around for me. Limiting exposure is pretty much the name of the game these days.

[Hoopster50 0]

Deadly force is Deadly force. In the Kentucky CCW course nothing of this sort is discussed and there is nothing within the laws either. Concealed deadly weapons in Ky could be anything from brass knuckles to an AK in your trench coat. If I had to kill someone the last thing I'd be worried about is the type of ammo I used.

[GeorgiaPD 408]

I agree with Nalioth, Hoopster and Azrial on their statements. A deadly force situation is a deadly force situation whether using any type of firearm or a plastic spork. The ammo in which you are refering would be considered commercially manufactured.

[mstranglr 9]

The only reason to shoot another person in most states is to kill them. Unless your state law differs, I think that such thinking is grasping at legal straws.

 

Actually, stating your intentions that way is grounds for a murder charge in many states. Some states (GA, AZ, TX, AK, ID, MT, etc.), do follow that line of thinking, but MOST do not. I have several multi-state CCWs, and most state's CCW doctrine states "shoot to STOP aggression", never "shoot to KILL". Unlike the ammo issue, there are MANY cases of armed citizens going to jail by stating their intention to kill the bad guy. There is a CCW guy in jail right now in my state because he accidentally stated that he "eliminated the enemy" in his 911 call (this proved his intention to kill to the jury). Another CCW guy sitting in jail in another state because he stated that he aimed for the head to take out a robber (proved to jury his intent to kill rather than stop). Most CCW citizens in jail right now were sent there due to the Jury's opinion that excessive force was used.

 

Be careful of taking people's advise in these matters until you take a local CCW class and learn your state's laws and position on CCW use of deadly force, as well as study cases of actual CCW shootings in your state. In most states, CCW holders are held to a different standard than your average homeowner. In many states (including mine), CCW rules are different from county to county. The sad truth about most CCW, is that you are legally required to think before you act - which is easier said than done.

 

Although I disagree with many of Ayoob's shooting doctrine, I will acknowledge the fact that he has sat in on and testified in hundreds of civilian shooting cases, and studied thousands more. When he tells you to not carry hand-loads in your CCW - he is telling you that because he has seen it brought up against CCW citizens before. CCW instructors tell you this as well because they are subpoenaed to testify in cases where their students are involved in a shooting, and they know the issue is brought up as well.

 

Most states have CCW forums that review local cases and keep you informed of new laws. Many are even frequented by lawyers that specialize in defending CCW shootings (every CCW citizen should have a good lawyer's phone number handy). I highly recommend that you ask these questions on one of those forums.

[Vultite 57]

toss a dummy weapon into the corpse's hand and be done with it, LOL j/k, I have never heard of that, but I'd imagine if you get into a tight spot and the state wants to come down upon you, they will with ANYTHING they can. But if they were to really pick on you with ammo choice, you may be in for a rough ride, no matter what ammo you were using...I guess don't shoot someone if you can help it in those pussy no-rights states....

[Azrial 1,091]

The only reason to shoot another person in most states is to kill them. Unless your state law differs, I think that such thinking is grasping at legal straws.

 

Actually, stating your intentions that way is grounds for a murder charge in many states. Some states (GA, AZ, TX, AK, ID, MT, etc.), do follow that line of thinking, but MOST do not. I have several multi-state CCWs, and most state's CCW doctrine states "shoot to STOP aggression", never "shoot to KILL". ...

 

You are correct, we shoot to stop people from doing the scary thing that had us in immediate fear of our lives, or the protection of another's life.

 

However a firearm is deadly force. I doubt that you can name a state where it is not. Since you are using deadly force to stop someone's aggression the law demands that you be able to justify killing them to be able to legally justify the use of the firearm.

 

If your use of deadly force fails to kill them, well it just does. That was not the intent, just the most logical and probable outcome.

 

But a statement that you were simply trying to wound or "scare" someone is far more legally problematic as you had admitted that deadly force was not really necessary to resolve the situation.

 

I don't need and Internet lawyer to explain that to me.

[Azrial 1,091]

BTW: Ayoob's experience as a small town cop with shootings leaves me somewhat underwhelmed.

Edited June 19, 2009 by Azrial

[aresv 49]

What about "factory" reloads from a small business? I am lucky to live just down the road from a commercial reloading business. They've been around for years and have a good reputation. I don't use their loads for self defense for the very reasons mentioned in this article. Plus, the last time I bought JHP from them, the hollowpoints had media stuck the tips as if they had been tumbling loaded rounds. Made me think twice.

 

Their reloads are great for hunting and range use though.

 

EDIT: wanted to add that the local reloading business uses totally random brass. They buy it from shooters and scavenge it from local ranges, so who knows what you're going to end up with.

Edited June 19, 2009 by aresv

[nalioth 405]

What about "factory" reloads from a small business? I am lucky to live just down the road from a commercial reloading business. They've been around for years and have a good reputation. I don't use their loads for self defense for the very reasons mentioned in this article. Plus, the last time I bought JHP from them, the hollowpoints had media stuck the tips as if they had been tumbling loaded rounds. Made me think twice.

 

Their reloads are great for hunting and range use though.

 

EDIT: wanted to add that the local reloading business uses totally random brass. They buy it from shooters and scavenge it from local ranges, so who knows what you're going to end up with.

See above: "Commercial ammo"

[aresv 49]

Well it is commercial in the sense that it was reloaded by a business... but their brass is completely random. Maybe one third winnie white box and the rest a potpourri of everything else. The CSI types picking up brass after an incident would be thrown for a loop.

 

Match ammo it ain't, but it's cheap and shoots clean.

[Shandlanos 1,470]

What you're describing sounds just like Ultramax ammunition. Once-/twice-/thrice-fired brass gathered from shooting ranges all over the place, sold to a company that sorts out the reloadable shells by caliber, then dumps them into a sizing/loading machine. It's inexpensive ammunition, and usually performs well. I've used thousands of rounds of Ultramax ammunition, and had only one shell fail; the base of the shell a few millimeters above the rim blew out. No damage to the gun, no biggie. That being said, carry good factory-new ammunition loaded into new brass. You want the most reliable ammo you can get for a weapon your life may depend on.

[aresv 49]

Agreed 100%, Shandlanos. For defense of me and mine, factory new premium ammunition is easily worth the price. I still practice with reloads, of course!