Whats the expected range for an MBR?

[vintagedude88 16]

Been doing some practicing at the range. I know my S308 is not a target rifle so I shouldn't expect accuracy like a bolt gun but what about range? Right now I can plink a target at 100yds without a problem. I'm sure the rest of you out there consider that to be nothing. So I'm wondering what range should I shoot for that is reasonable for MBR purposes. I have the 16" barrel so I definitely am not expecting it to be a long range shooter. Should I be shooting for 200yds? 300yds?

 

Bear in mind that I don't intend to use any better than 4x optics and cheap Russian Wolf ammo.

[Reverendfranz 160]

Ideally, 300 yards should be the beginning of your longer effective range, and hopefully, the tail end of your enemy's.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Been doing some practicing at the range. I know my S308 is not a target rifle so I shouldn't expect accuracy like a bolt gun but what about range? Right now I can plink a target at 100yds without a problem. I'm sure the rest of you out there consider that to be nothing. So I'm wondering what range should I shoot for that is reasonable for MBR purposes. I have the 16" barrel so I definitely am not expecting it to be a long range shooter. Should I be shooting for 200yds? 300yds?

 

Bear in mind that I don't intend to use any better than 4x optics and cheap Russian Wolf ammo.

 

First off congratulations on using your brain, this is an excellent question. Now get to an Appleseed event.

 

Ok the thing is to keep your opponent outside his range and inside yours. Now there's counter sniping range and there's effective fire range. Sniping range is where you are almost assured a hit. Effective fire is where your fire is good enough to make em run for cover and hit enough to remain effective, ie keep their heads down.

 

The military uses effective fire range of 400 yards/meters or at least used to, since carbine spray and pray fever hit them its more like 250M and I doubt given the really marginal marksmanship instruction these last years that it is more than that unless dealing with the designated sharpshooter. The 308 can lay down effective fire past 500 yards and with a good 3MOA rifle and excellent marksman get good dependable hits at 400M with iron sights.

 

Your best bet is to work on YOUR shooting skills and learn to do it properly using WW2 style marksmanship training ... get to an Appleseed event and enjoy. Really I can't stress that hard enough, the key is not the rifle its you. Good luck and shoot well.

 

P.S. Silver Bear ammo is cheaper than the good Wolf and gives better performance. Just a suggestion.

Edited July 24, 2009 by Rhodes1968

[S-12inWV 1]

"and I doubt given the really marginal marksmanship instruction these last years that it is more than that unless dealing with the designated sharpshooter"

 

I respectfully disaggree and can speak about my experience in the USMC as a Range Coach, Block NCO, and Marksmanship Instuctor (MOS 8531) That Marines don't have "marginal marksmanship instruction" by any means..... And would put money on it they have the best Marksmanship Program of any branch or service in all the world in Basic Training.....and likely beyond. We still Qualify annually at the KD (known distance) Range from distances of 200 to 500yrds with Iron sights on the M16A2. This also involves Night Fire quals from closer distances. The Army only fires to 300 meters.....If I'm still correct at basic. At that range there's little need for a dope change (sight adjustment) unless a full value wind.... And Marines generally don't spray and pray unless they're a machine gunner or rifleman and haven't identified the exact location of the target. We strive for "one shot one kill"

 

Also, I have a TROMIX 308 16 inch conversion with a peep site installed (highly recommended to increase accuracy) and can pop gallon jugs at 300 yds easily.....Practice up to that with the carbine and you'll be good to go. I also have a S-308 Version 21 with Burris glass and killed two deer this past fall at over 400yrds.... I do use Federal 150gr Power shocks though but have had decent results from Wolf too....but it's not for hunting.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

"and I doubt given the really marginal marksmanship instruction these last years that it is more than that unless dealing with the designated sharpshooter"

 

I respectfully disaggree and can speak about my experience in the USMC as a Range Coach, Block NCO, and Marksmanship Instuctor (MOS 8531) That Marines don't have "marginal marksmanship instruction" by any means..... And would put money on it they have the best Marksmanship Program of any branch or service in all the world in Basic Training.....and likely beyond. We still Qualify annually at the KD (known distance) Range from distances of 200 to 500yrds with Iron sights on the M16A2. This also involves Night Fire quals from closer distances. The Army only fires to 300 meters.....If I'm still correct at basic. At that range there's little need for a dope change (sight adjustment) unless a full value wind.... And Marines generally don't spray and pray unless they're a machine gunner or rifleman and haven't identified the exact location of the target. We strive for "one shot one kill"

 

Also, I have a TROMIX 308 16 inch conversion with a peep site installed (highly recommended to increase accuracy) and can pop gallon jugs at 300 yds easily.....Practice up to that with the carbine and you'll be good to go. I also have a S-308 Version 21 with Burris glass and killed two deer this past fall at over 400yrds.... I do use Federal 150gr Power shocks though but have had decent results from Wolf too....but it's not for hunting.

 

The subject was general so I answered in a general way.

 

I perhaps should have differentiated between the Marines and other organizations but decided against it for simplicity. I agree the Marines receive more instruction than others, far more in fact, but even that is less than in the past due to recruits coming into the program not being the marksmen they once were. Perhaps as an instructor that is fine with you having fewer bad habits to break but historically it does not help to have the cultural aversion to weaponry that is being installed by the politicians and others. Lets not even get into what most LEO consider adequate for the rank and file.

 

There are moves about to reduce military marksmanship training in attempts to save money, some of us have spoke out against that misguided attempt. There have long been attempts to lessen the importance of the individual rifleman as being obsolete, sadly some are successful. But you see my point Im sure, the rifleman himself makes the difference.

 

Thank you for your service it is appreciated. We need such as you badly. If you ever considered it the Appleseed program needs instructors badly to give of their time and knowledge to keep the tradition of the American Rifleman alive. Appleseed Link

 

 

EDIT: Quick question on that peep sight. I had to send back the Mojo sight as it was just not taking the recoil of the 308 and losing zero. Perhaps it is just a faulty sight but I am looking for a good one, hows your's working out for durability?

Edited July 24, 2009 by Rhodes1968

[Darth AkSarBen 20]

So I'm wondering what range should I shoot for that is reasonable for MBR purposes. I have the 16" barrel so I definitely am not expecting it to be a long range shooter. Should I be shooting for 200yds? 300yds?

 

Bear in mind that I don't intend to use any better than 4x optics and cheap Russian Wolf ammo.

 

16" with Wolf.... stick with 100 to 150 yards and call it good. How far will it shoot? Over a mile, so watch where you aim it, as it has sufficient range, but with Wolf, anything you hit at over 400 yards is going to be accidental with a 16" .308 depending on the target. Small trucks and cars you can hit. Small watermellons and muskmellons at 400 yards are going to be missed unless it happens to just be a lucky hit.

For Main Battle Rifle, it will performs as such in that 150yrds +/- with open sights and bulk ammo. It will drive anyone to adequate cover and then make them rethink what "adequate" really is.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Darth AkSarBen

[loki0629 55]

300 yards is a good benchmark. If you really know how to adjust the dope on your optics you can experiment at further distances. A notebook is handy.

 

Rhodes, the Marine Corps changed their shooting qualification to include firing in field conditions i.e. unknown distance. This is in addition to qualifying in the known distance course which still goes out to 500 meters. Rifle marksmanship in the Corps has never been marginal and the simple fact that no one graduates boot camp unless they qualify proves that there is no degradation in the shooting skill of the basically trained Marine.

 

S-12inWV said it well, Marines don't "spray and pray". The support element suppresses while the assault element closes in. The two elements can switch roles as situation dictates (leapfrogging each other) and each element can be as small as a single rifleman. This is the essence of maneuver warfare and can be applied to all the tactical levels of organization (fire team to division). In our warfighting doctrine, point targets are at 500 meters and area targets are at 800 meters with an M16A2, what you labeled as counter-sniper and effective ranges. Believe me when I tell you that we push the limits of that rifle and caliber combination in training, especially out in 29 Palms where the Mojave Desert allows for it. Urban combat is a whole different animal and requires different shooting skill sets such as shooting on the move.

 

So what I'm saying is don't confuse your knowledge of shooting on a range with knowing how to shoot in combat. I understand that you're trying to market Appleseed but the tone of your posts is condescending and even insulting to some of us who've earned our basic rifleman designation at Parris Island or San Diego. I myself will attend an Appleseed shoot in the future but I'll take it for what it is, the absolute basics.

[Paladin 37]

I don't want to pile on

 

But another small point, Appleseed is great for basic rifle marksmanship. BUT, if you want to learn to shoot at 300-400yds, then train at 300-400yds.

 

Appleseed uses small targets at close range to simulate long range shooting.

 

It's like using a blow up doll to practice sex, close, but not quite like the real thing.

[Azrial 1,091]

Close range practice is perfectly fine to learn the basics of riflemanship out to 300-400 yards. Our own military has used the same method as used at Appleseed. Longer range shooting involves a lot of other factors, including ballistics, wind drift, cross winds, humidity, inclines and declines, etc. This type of true long range shooting is what really benifits and can only be learned at the actual ranges.

 

Now if you have access to a 1000 yard range and unlimited hi-power ammo, you might what to ignore everything I have said...

[Darth AkSarBen 20]

I grew up on a ranch in NW Nebraska where it is pretty open. Prairie dogs at 200 yards sometimes only give you a head for a target, and that's about as big as a small chicken egg. Some are out further at 300 or 400 yards, and standing. We learn to get in a little closer on those to make sure we increase our chances of a hit. Most varmit hungters would as soon get in a closer shot, but ofen not possible. Reasoning is that there is a lot less possibility of variances at 200 yards and less than 200 + yards. A tiny freckle off at 100 yards is going to be a miss at 400 yards, again depending on the size of the target. .308 in 16" should be a great rifle out to 200 yards for consistent hits. I have not doubt about it. Difficulty lies in someone geting in enough practice with one. Open country with variable range targets is the best. You have to "learn" distance, as your target is not always going to be at exactly 100 200 or 300 yards. Your choice of ammo and the given inherited accuracy of the rifle will give you excellent battle rifle work at urban distances. Your experience and expertise at marksmanship will make the difference in longer shots, and that will take some time.

[superA 289]

I'm not a good shot by any stretch of the imagination but I can hit milk jugs at about 200 yards with my 16 inch 7.62x39 using iron sights and wolf ammo having very little time in with my rifle. I don't hit it every time but I get awfully close. It would seem that with optics you could get at least three hundred out of a .308. Now, sex with a blow up doll...never mind.