christcorp 26 Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 OK; I'll make this simple. The whole 922 that I have read about here and in other forums has me totally confused. I don't need to know and explanation or interpretation, just an answer to a simple question. I am considering buying a Saiga .223 from Centerfire systems. It comes with a 10 round magazine. I have seen 30 round magazines for sale; at centerfire, as well as places like sportsmansguide.com and others. Am I allowed to buy a 30 round magazine and put it in the gun. I don't plan on doing and modifications to this gun. At least not now. Just want to know if I spend $18 for a 30 round magazine (3 pack for $54); is that legal? I have no desire to pay $120 for an adapter, when I can get 30 round magazines for $18. So, can I use this? Thanks. Mike. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 (edited) You will be in violation of 922r if you insert a magazine of 11 rounds or more capacity into a factory (no mods at all) Saiga rifle. Edited December 13, 2009 by nalioth Quote Link to post Share on other sites
christcorp 26 Posted December 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 Then what saiga rifle is "Allowed" to have a 30 round magazine? I can understand certain non-reputable websites selling a 30 round magazine. But when place like Sportsmansguide.com sells them, what's the deal? They are about as reputable as they come. And I can't imagine them selling 30 rounds magazines if it will make a rifle illegal. So; still confused; what's the deal? Thanks... mike.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saigafreake 27 Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 because 30 round mags are legal as long as you have enough us made parts on your rifle and dont live in a commie state. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saigafreake 27 Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 (edited) ooops double tap. Edited December 13, 2009 by saigafreake Quote Link to post Share on other sites
christcorp 26 Posted December 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 OK; after doing some research; If I replace the stock with one with a pistol grip; such as the TAPCO; that counts as 1 part. (Thus bringing the original Saiko from 14 foreign parts to 13.) Then, according to http://www.mississippiautoarms.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=274_264&products_id=339 , it says that I need to replace 3 more parts. And that the 30 round magazine Surefire http://www.mississippiautoarms.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=274_360&products_id=142 ; counts as 3 more parts for the magazine body, follower, and floor plate. That would then be the 4 parts converted to american, and thus everything would be legal.... Is that correct? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 OK; after doing some research; If I replace the stock with one with a pistol grip; such as the TAPCO; that counts as 1 part. (Thus bringing the original Saiko from 14 foreign parts to 13.) Then, according to http://www.mississippiautoarms.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=274_264&products_id=339 , it says that I need to replace 3 more parts. And that the 30 round magazine Surefire http://www.mississippiautoarms.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=274_360&products_id=142 ; counts as 3 more parts for the magazine body, follower, and floor plate. That would then be the 4 parts converted to american, and thus everything would be legal.... Is that correct? You need to watch your math. Adding a pistol grip brings the total parts count to 15. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 OK; after doing some research; If I replace the stock with one with a pistol grip; such as the TAPCO; that counts as 1 part. (Thus bringing the original Saiko from 14 foreign parts to 13.) Then, according to http://www.mississippiautoarms.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=274_264&products_id=339 , it says that I need to replace 3 more parts. And that the 30 round magazine Surefire http://www.mississippiautoarms.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=274_360&products_id=142 ; counts as 3 more parts for the magazine body, follower, and floor plate. That would then be the 4 parts converted to american, and thus everything would be legal.... Is that correct? You need to watch your math. Adding a pistol grip brings the total parts count to 15. But he never took off for more than one part when adding the stock PG combo... the way he got there is wrong, but adds up to the same number. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
christcorp 26 Posted December 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 No, I think my math is fine. I think you should read my post again, and also check out the link. At the bottom it explains the 922r. If I was ADDING a pistol grip; and it was a FOREIGN MADE pistol grip; then you would be correct. It would then be 15. However; I said to REPLACE THE STOCK with an AMERICAN one that HAD a pistol grip on it. Thus, I just REPLACED a FOREIGN part with an AMERICAN part. Thus; dropping the foreign count from 14 to 13. Then, the AMERICAN magazine; which counts as 3 parts replaced; because magazines have bodies, followers, and bases; (Read the links). I think my math is correct. However; I could be mis-reading what's printed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 (edited) No, I think my math is fine. I think you should read my post again, and also check out the link. At the bottom it explains the 922r. If I was ADDING a pistol grip; and it was a FOREIGN MADE pistol grip; then you would be correct. It would then be 15. However; I said to REPLACE THE STOCK with an AMERICAN one that HAD a pistol grip on it. Thus, I just REPLACED a FOREIGN part with an AMERICAN part. Thus; dropping the foreign count from 14 to 13. Then, the AMERICAN magazine; which counts as 3 parts replaced; because magazines have bodies, followers, and bases; (Read the links). I think my math is correct. However; I could be mis-reading what's printed. Yes but when adding the total parts cound it should be factored as 15 parts for a saiga with a pistol grip, not as 14, this is what nalioth was trying to say. So considering 15 total parts subtract 2(one for pistol grip, and one for buttstock), and 3 more for US made mags and it puts your total parts count at 10(where you figured). Edited December 13, 2009 by Nailbomb Quote Link to post Share on other sites
christcorp 26 Posted December 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 OK; so in other words; that would be legal? Correct? And let me get this straight. The reason for this 922r configuration issue, is because the saiko .223 was imported as a SPORTING gun. IF I put a stock with a pistol grip on it, then that means it's NOT a sporting rifle any longer, and I have to get the important parts down to 10. So, if I use the stock with the pistol grip, then I MUST use an American Made magazine to account for the other parts needed to have the imported parts down to 10. If I take a stock saiko .223 and put in an american made 30 round magazine, then I have to replace 1 additional part, such as the stock, with an american part to again, bring the imported parts down to 10, because the 30 round magazine makes the gun NO LONGER a SPORTER gun. I think I am correct in this issue. So, the question begs, how come I can walk into a gun store and buy a traditional AK variant; romanian, bulgarian, hungarian, etc... that is already mounted with a pistol grip type stock, and buy a 30 round magazine for it right then without any 922r type infractions. Are AK variants not affected by the 922r ruling? I've bought traditional AK variants before, and never had anyone say anything about 922r. thanks. Mike.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 OK; so in other words; that would be legal? Correct? And let me get this straight. The reason for this 922r configuration issue, is because the saiko .223 was imported as a SPORTING gun. IF I put a stock with a pistol grip on it, then that means it's NOT a sporting rifle any longer, and I have to get the important parts down to 10. So, if I use the stock with the pistol grip, then I MUST use an American Made magazine to account for the other parts needed to have the imported parts down to 10. If I take a stock saiko .223 and put in an american made 30 round magazine, then I have to replace 1 additional part, such as the stock, with an american part to again, bring the imported parts down to 10, because the 30 round magazine makes the gun NO LONGER a SPORTER gun. I think I am correct in this issue. So, the question begs, how come I can walk into a gun store and buy a traditional AK variant; romanian, bulgarian, hungarian, etc... that is already mounted with a pistol grip type stock, and buy a 30 round magazine for it right then without any 922r type infractions. Are AK variants not affected by the 922r ruling? I've bought traditional AK variants before, and never had anyone say anything about 922r. thanks. Mike.. You would be legal assuming use of American mags you are indeed correct. Many Ak varients are shipped over only allowing single stack magazines. American companies change out parts to meet 922r and open up the magwell to accept traditional mags. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
christcorp 26 Posted December 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 Gotcha; so in other words; being the AK variant for sale in the local gun store already has a pistol grip type stock and can accept high capacity magazines; it's assumed that the importer/american company swapped out the necessary amount of parts to make it 922r compliant. So, there's nothing to worry about. Being the gun is the way people would have wanted to convert it to anyway. Whereby the saiga, is importer CHEAPER, because it's considered a SPORTER rifle with NO pistol grip, and a low capacity magazine. So, if you want to change it up, you have to be concerned to make sure that the part count for imported parts, doesn't pass 10. Got it. By the way, here is a decent link to the 922r and basically what we're talking about. I think others might like it. Pretty good explanation. Thanks. Mike.... http://home.comcast.net/~navy87guy/home/922r.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 (edited) Gotcha; so in other words; being the AK variant for sale in the local gun store already has a pistol grip type stock and can accept high capacity magazines; it's assumed that the importer/american company swapped out the necessary amount of parts to make it 922r compliant. So, there's nothing to worry about. Being the gun is the way people would have wanted to convert it to anyway. Whereby the saiga, is importer CHEAPER, because it's considered a SPORTER rifle with NO pistol grip, and a low capacity magazine. So, if you want to change it up, you have to be concerned to make sure that the part count for imported parts, doesn't pass 10. Got it. By the way, here is a decent link to the 922r and basically what we're talking about. I think others might like it. Pretty good explanation. Thanks. Mike.... http://home.comcast.net/~navy87guy/home/922r.html To really throw some into this. Just adding a pistol grip does not trigger 922r. The one single point that makes 922r imperative is the modification of the Saiga rifle for the use use of non-sporting magazines (mags of a capacity of 11 or more in a rifle). This can occur in a factory trimmed Saiga, or one with just a pistol grip. . . Bottom line: No matter what condition your Saiga is in, if you plan on using "non sporting" magazines in it, you must be compliant with 922r. P.S. Your link was written and hosted by Navy87guy. He is a member here and used to be here an awful lot. Edited December 13, 2009 by nalioth Quote Link to post Share on other sites
christcorp 26 Posted December 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 OK; so I feel pretty confident now in what the ruling says/means. (As much as we can decipher ANY government rule/law. So now, I just have to decide which way to go with this. My choices ARE: 1. Buy the Saiga in .223 for $340. Add another $25 for shipping. Add another $30 for FFL transfer what our local gun shops charge. And spend an additional $65 for a new butt stock/PG. Then I can buy hi-cap magazines and use it in it. Total price: $460. (plus the additional cost for magazines, but that's a given expense no matter what) 2. Buy an AR-15 sporter .223 for $675. Add another $25 for shipping. Add another $30 for FFL transfer. Total price: $730. (Plus additional cost for magazines; BUT they are cheaper because they are standard AR magazines) 3. Buy a Romanian AK-47 from the local gun shop that is already modified/compliant to accept hi-capacity magazines. 7.62x39 for $399. Add 6% sales tax. Total price: $424. (Plus the cost for additional magazines. But these TOO are inexpensive and plentiful) Part of me really wants a .223. And basically; the price difference between the Saiga in .223 after adding the conversion, shipping, and FFL; and the local romanian 7.62x39, is basically a wash. But there's a part of me that says: AK and their variants; including the Saiga; were MEANT TO BE 7.62x39. The only ISSUES I've heard about with the Saiga, seems to be when it's a .223 version. And part of me says that if I want a .223, I should go with the manufacturers who specialize in that caliber. Either a AR variant or a Mini-14. Ammo SEEMS to be basically the same cost being I buy most of my ammo online. Locally however, .223 would be more available. Especially if the time ever came with more gun laws or SHTF scenarios. Seems like .223 would be the better choice. YET, the 7.62x39 is a more practical caliber if I needed/wanted to use it for deer size animals. .223 isn't really good for that. Plus, here is wyoming, .23 is the minimum caliber for big game. This is to exclude the .223. Not because Wyoming is anti-gun (They are probably one of the most PRO-GUN states). But in wyoming, most hunting shots are going to be 200 yards plus. And with the weight of a .223 being in the 55-65 grain area, they don't like to see "Injured" animals. So anyway; it looks like I have a decision to make. I don't anticipate using either gun for hunting. More for plinking and SHTF scenarios. (Not that I'm paranoid. I'm not. But it's nice to have in case). In that respect, I think either would be fine. If I had say 1000 rounds of 7.62x39 ammo saved up at any given time, then a shortage or whatever wouldn't be an issue. But the .223 is definitely more readily available. Oh well. Definitely thank you all for your input. I have a much better understanding of 922r, the saiga, requirements if I use a 30+ round magazine, etc... I might need to start another thread in the 7.62x39 section; and/or here in the .223 section; to see what folks think about the difference between the 2 calibers. If I go with 7.62x39, there's no reason really to go with the saiga, when it means I have to modify it for hi-cap magazines. It's cheaper and already done to just get an existing AK variant. Unless of course some of you can tell me that the Saiga is a much better quality gun than some of the other AK variants. Thanks again. Mike..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 I might need to start another thread in the 7.62x39 section; and/or here in the .223 section; to see what folks think about the difference between the 2 calibers. Why would you do that, when there's dozens of those already here? Unless of course some of you can tell me that the Saiga is a much better quality gun than some of the other AK variants. Thanks again. Mike..... The Saiga is built from 100% totally new parts in the same factory that produces military AKs. Many of the parts are right off the military production line. The WASR is (currently) built from recycled Romanian Army guns (used guns). Formerly, they were made of parts rejected by the military QC inspectors. It's your money and your decision. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
christcorp 26 Posted December 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 I might need to start another thread in the 7.62x39 section; and/or here in the .223 section; to see what folks think about the difference between the 2 calibers. Why would you do that, when there's dozens of those already here? Unless of course some of you can tell me that the Saiga is a much better quality gun than some of the other AK variants. Thanks again. Mike..... The Saiga is built from 100% totally new parts in the same factory that produces military AKs. Many of the parts are right off the military production line. The WASR is (currently) built from recycled Romanian Army guns (used guns). Formerly, they were made of parts rejected by the military QC inspectors. It's your money and your decision. Excellent points nalioth. Definitely something to think about. I knew that saiga was produced new, but didn't know they were produced in the same factory as the new military production line. I definitely like that idea. Just have to consider now the .223 vs 7.62x39 issue. Which unfortunately will NEVER seem to be settled. That debate has been going on as long as all the 1911A1 and which caliber is best debates. Thanks.... Mike.....\ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vbrtrmn 167 Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 Excellent points nalioth. Definitely something to think about. I knew that saiga was produced new, but didn't know they were produced in the same factory as the new military production line. I definitely like that idea. Just have to consider now the .223 vs 7.62x39 issue. Which unfortunately will NEVER seem to be settled. That debate has been going on as long as all the 1911A1 and which caliber is best debates. Thanks.... Mike.....\ Per the debate on .223 or 7.62x39... Which do you like more? Get that Quote Link to post Share on other sites
christcorp 26 Posted December 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 Excellent points nalioth. Definitely something to think about. I knew that saiga was produced new, but didn't know they were produced in the same factory as the new military production line. I definitely like that idea. Just have to consider now the .223 vs 7.62x39 issue. Which unfortunately will NEVER seem to be settled. That debate has been going on as long as all the 1911A1 and which caliber is best debates. Thanks.... Mike.....\ Per the debate on .223 or 7.62x39... Which do you like more? Get that That's not really a question I can answer. I don't EITHER, MORE. Except for plinking, and possibly the SHTF scenarios, I don't have a NEED for either. Yes, I could go shoot prairie dogs with them, but I won't. I could double up the 7.62x39 as a deer rifle, but I won't. (I could do that with my M1-Garand, but I won't do that either). I don't NEED any more guns. Although, if I was to look at want I have left (I've bought and sold a lot of guns in my life), I would say that each of my guns fill a niche and have a purpose. Somewhat unique from each other. I have 2 categories of guns. 1) Each has a specific purpose, unique from each other. (Not that some couldn't double up in functionality, but that isn't it's MAIN purpose). and 2) Guns that I got on a really good deal and will use as trading material. But the one "PURPOSE" that I didn't have a gun for; unless you count the M1-Garand; was as a multi-shot weapon against people, in a SHTF type scenario. For this purpose, either caliber would suffice. However, the 7.62x39 does have the capability of doubling as a deer rifle. Thus, not requiring me to carry more than one rifle. But in a SHTF, live/hide in the woods scenario, a 22LR would be a much more practical gun for survival purposes. It's quite, (Don't want others to know you're there). And with a close enough, accurate shot, you can even take down a deer. But because of the survival scenario, you wouldn't be carrying a deer out with you, so you'd be better off going for rabbits, squirrel, etc... So basically, I'm trying to decide which caliber is the more practical. 1. Current cost of each is pretty close to the same if ordering online. 2. Current availability of each is pretty much the same. 3. If for some reason, the government started banning the importation of AK style calibers, the .223 would probably be in the same boat. Meaning, "Surplus" type ammo would be short, and the only real ammo left would be expensive retail 20 rounds per box type. In which case, .223 would probably be more available. 4. If for some reason, a citizenry was called up to "Help" the guard, reserve, police, etc... .223 is the more common caliber. They would be able to provide me with ammunition if needed. (Very unlikely scenario, but I'm reaching for any and all pros and cons). 5. If I got an AR style .223, then parts would be quite available. If I bought an AK style 7.62x39, parts would be quite available. If I bought an AK style in .223; that would be a totally different animal. So, the bottom line is me trying to determine which caliber. If I go with the .223, then I will have to decide on the saiga or an AR variant. If I go with a 7.62x39, I will have to decide on the saiga or an already modified and ready to go AK variant. Nalioth had a good point about the quality of the saiga probably being better than the AK variants, because of new manufacturing compared to used parts and/or QC rejected military parts, to make the AK variants readily available.But the first thing I have to decide on is the caliber. Thanks.... Mike..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bodyguard 0 Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 Well, to add to the confusion, I was pretty confused by all the compliance mumbo jumbo so I just drove to Centerfire Systems a couple of weeks ago (just a 3/4 hr drive for me) and bought the Saiga 223 and asked about the 30rd mag and they advised me that it was perfectly legal with the gun and magazine combination they sell. I would think that they informed me properly.....any one know different? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 Well, to add to the confusion, I was pretty confused by all the compliance mumbo jumbo so I just drove to Centerfire Systems a couple of weeks ago (just a 3/4 hr drive for me) and bought the Saiga 223 and asked about the 30rd mag and they advised me that it was perfectly legal with the gun and magazine combination they sell. I would think that they informed me properly.....any one know different? They're not the ones that will violate federal laws when the mag is inserted. It's quite legal to sell "non sporting" magazines with a Saiga, so they're right (from a certain point of view). Unless you make your Saiga compliant under 922, it's a federal felony to insert the same. . . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ddepedro 0 Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 Wow this is confusing...lol Okay I just bought my saiga yesterday and i want a 30 rd surefire mag. I ordered a tapco intrafuse handguard for it also. So until I get my handguard installed on my rifle I cannot insert the 30 rd Magazine? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ddepedro 0 Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 Also Nalioth, What kind of stock is that? That is the kind of stock I want, I live in CT and we cannot have fold-able or collapsible stocks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted June 17, 2010 Report Share Posted June 17, 2010 Also Nalioth, What kind of stock is that? That is the kind of stock I want, I live in CT and we cannot have fold-able or collapsible stocks. If you're referring to the one in my avatar, it's a Nato length K-Var poly stock. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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