Test firing 2 Saiga 12s- reliability questions

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

I took my S12s to a range today for some reliability testing.... in the rain. Both S12s are converted, not by me, and both have stock internals with the exception that one of them (Saiga #1)has a Chaos puck and both have Tapco FCGs. Saiga #1 has had some gas related work done to it (I call it Saiga #1 because it was the first one I bought). Saiga #2 has had gas work and hours of Dremeling, filing, and sanding done to the action. Saiga #2 was the first to be fired today.

 

I shot 80 rounds of Walmart Winchester 2 3/4" 3 dram eq 7 1/2 shot 1200fps 100 round bulk pack, 100 rounds of Federal 2 3/4" 3 dram eq 8 shot 1200fps 100 round bulk pack, and 25 rounds of Winchester "Superspeed" 2 3/4" 3 dram 8 shot 1200fps.

 

Mags used were 1- 5 round factory mag, 1- 8 round factory mag, 1- AGP 10 round mag, 1- Surefire 12 round mag (black), and 2- Surefire 12 round mags (clear)

 

I fired a couple mags slow, but mostly doubletaps, tripletaps, and all out mag dumps. I had 4 FTFs out of all of the ammo I fired, two of which were in each of the clear SGM 12 rounders using the bulk Wichester ammo. The first FTF was at shot 3 of 12 and the second was at shot 9 of 12, in Saiga #2. The third FTF was in the factory 5 rounder at shot 3 of 5 using the Winchester bulk, and the fourth FTF was in the 8 rounder using the Federal ammo at shot 7 of 8, both in Saiga #1. I noticed that the rounds were hanging up at the top of the feed guide? in both S12s(don't know what it is called.... by where the extractor slides in). I don't know if it is a problem with misformed cases, the mags, or just the sheer speed that I was firing was "shaking" the rounds into more of a verticle position. I didn't experience any FTFs at slow fire. Is four FTFs out of 205 rounds of cheap birdshot considered acceptable reliability?

Should I leave them alone, try some new mags, or try some better ammo.

 

Saiga #1 would not eject birdshot at before I worked on it (it was an unfired conversion). Saiga #2 would not eject or feed birdshot before I worked on it (it was supposed to be a 150 round weapon when I got it, which I believe to be true). In fairness to the members here who make their living tuning these weapons, I do not feel it would be fair to them to discuss in detail what I have done to my S12s to enhance reliability. I sincerely hope you can understand my position and find it honorable for me to respect the "bread and butter" of others here.

 

I had three failures to fire at rapid fire in Saiga #2. The only thing I can attribute it to is the fact that the hammer doesn't quite sit flush against the tail of the bolt when fired, causing the hammer to not quite push the firing pin in all the way. I plan to reprofile the hammer to eliminate this issue.

 

Anyway, today was a good day in spite of the rain and it is good to see my efforts to be 98% fruitful, especially since I had never even held a S12 until I bought my first one recently and didn't really know much at all about them.

Edited March 21, 2010 by evlblkwpnz

[Spartacus 1,619]

I didn't experience any FTFs at slow fire. Is four FTFs out of 205 rounds of cheap birdshot considered acceptable reliability?

Should I leave them alone, try some new mags, or try some better ammo.

 

In fairness to the members here who make their living tuning these weapons, I do not feel it would be fair to them to discuss in detail what I have done to my S12s to enhance reliability. I sincerely hope you can understand my position and find it honorable for me to respect the "bread and butter" of others here.

 

Sounds like the few FTFs were mostly on Wally World Winchester, that's not bad at all. They are already probably 100% on the Wally World Federal stuff. These guns were designed to shoot high brass, you don't need to go any further on mods trying to get 100% on the Winchester stuff.

 

Commendable about not wanting to hurt anybody's livelihood by spilling the beans on your mods. If you do some searching around here though, most of the top guys that earn their living working on these and other guns are happy to help and give you tips here. Some of them may have their little secrets they don't share, but for the most part, they'll tell you what makes these things tick. It gives them exposure and that gives them business. Many gun owners can't do the mods or will screw them up anyway, then they get that business too. If nobody shared info here, it would dry up real quick.

Edited March 21, 2010 by Spartacus

[sapper1371usmc 107]

Saiga #1 would not eject birdshot at before I worked on it (it was an unfired conversion). Saiga #2 would not eject or feed birdshot before I worked on it (it was supposed to be a 150 round weapon when I got it, which I believe to be true). In fairness to the members here who make their living tuning these weapons, I do not feel it would be fair to them to discuss in detail what I have done to my S12s to enhance reliability. I sincerely hope you can understand my position and find it honorable for me to respect the "bread and butter" of others here.

 

What? This makes no sense to me. This is a forum where you can come and discuss your weapon and mods to it to make every owner well versed in knowing their shotgun/rifles inside and out. It would be pretty boring if everybody came on here and stated:

 

Bought me a shotgun today, had some problems so I fixed it, now it shoots pretty good.

 

But its okay, because their have been numerous other posts that are actually informative and address reliability issues, like removing the gas block and drilling out the gas ports larger or adding an additional port, polishing the bolt rails, reprofiling the hammer to the original specs, polishing the bolt, matching the feed ramp angle with that of the front trunion and polishing, etc...

 

There will always be people who do not feel confident in their abilities, do not have the time, or just like the idea of having a professional restoration done that will still send their weapons off to the business members to have work done. But for those who care to venture out on a limb and perform the mods themselves or do not have the extra funds, it is nice to know we can come here for the information to guide us.

[rjcatp101 0]

I had the same issues bro. I just did my mods last week and was able to test it out yesterday. I was stunned after i unloaded a 10 rnd AGP mag mixed with walmart bulk fed and win with no FTEs. Everything was butter until i had some magazine issues, they were mainly in surefire, promag (ofcourse), and MD drum. I guess i can make some adjustment to drum when i shoot cheap stuff because it works with medium and high loads. Needless to say I was pumped just to c my baby cycle

[rjcatp101 0]

Saiga #1 would not eject birdshot at before I worked on it (it was an unfired conversion). Saiga #2 would not eject or feed birdshot before I worked on it (it was supposed to be a 150 round weapon when I got it, which I believe to be true). In fairness to the members here who make their living tuning these weapons, I do not feel it would be fair to them to discuss in detail what I have done to my S12s to enhance reliability. I sincerely hope you can understand my position and find it honorable for me to respect the "bread and butter" of others here.

 

What? This makes no sense to me. This is a forum where you can come and discuss your weapon and mods to it to make every owner well versed in knowing their shotgun/rifles inside and out. It would be pretty boring if everybody came on here and stated:

 

Bought me a shotgun today, had some problems so I fixed it, now it shoots pretty good.

 

But its okay, because their have been numerous other posts that are actually informative and address reliability issues, like removing the gas block and drilling out the gas ports larger or adding an additional port, polishing the bolt rails, reprofiling the hammer to the original specs, polishing the bolt, matching the feed ramp angle with that of the front trunion and polishing, etc...

 

There will always be people who do not feel confident in their abilities, do not have the time, or just like the idea of having a professional restoration done that will still send their weapons off to the business members to have !work done. But for those who care to venture out on a limb and perform the mods themselves or do not have the extra funds, it is nice to know we can come here for the information to guide us.

Hell yeah Sapper!

[TYBOY 33]

I try to stay out of the firing line, but this did piss me off when I read it.

 

I can understand people who paid to have their firearms modified or tuned by professionals not exposing what was done to protect those businessmen. On the other hand If I figure something out and it solves a major issue with function or reliability of my S-12, I will post it for all to see.

 

I believe that this forum should exist based on the principals of people helping each other out. I realize that there are business members here that make their living doing these mods and it wouldn't be right to ask them to post all of their techniques and secret fixes, But if we choose to start withholding things that we figure out on our own then I believe this forum is doomed.

 

What is this forums purpose????

 

1. Provide a platform for Business members to create customers.
2. People who love the S-12 to share knowledge and help each other out.

I personally couldn't care less if you kept what you found to yourself or not. I do believe your reasoning is misguided. I will eventually get mine running great and will share everything I learn (on my own) with every member of this forum.

 

Sincerely

 

TYBOY

Edited March 22, 2010 by TYBOY

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Some of the things I have done were discussed here, but I feel are completely obvious anyways. I added a few things I thought would be beneficial and did a few things that I believe have been overlooked.... or may be well kept secrets by the real tuners here. I will say that the design of the BCG is what it is because of cost and time savings. Much can be gained there.

 

I am in an industry where technique, design, and process make you stand out from the competition and my trade secrets are well kept. My competition keeps their secrets well and I couldn't care less how or what they do, but I don't want them knowing my secrets. This mindset keeps me in business and keeps the bills paid I am not in the firearms business, but I feel there is an unspoken, often broken, code of the self employed. I figured out a lot of this stuff on my own and if you look at the design of the weapon long enough, you can improve it.

[TYBOY 33]

Some of the things I have done were discussed here, but I feel are completely obvious anyways. I added a few things I thought would be beneficial and did a few things that I believe have been overlooked.... or may be well kept secrets by the real tuners here. I will say that the design of the BCG is what it is because of cost and time savings. Much can be gained there.

 

I am in an industry where technique, design, and process make you stand out from the competition and my trade secrets are well kept. My competition keeps their secrets well and I couldn't care less how or what they do, but I don't want them knowing my secrets. This mindset keeps me in business and keeps the bills paid I am not in the firearms business, but I feel there is an unspoken, often broken, code of the self employed. I figured out a lot of this stuff on my own and if you look at the design of the weapon long enough, you can improve it.

 

 

What is a BCG?

 

I will state it again, Keep what you found to yourself but this forum is not about secrets of enriching plutonium, euranium whatever its called, its about guns. The business members here will get plenty of business without us withholding info from other members. I happen to be good at what I do but I don't withhold things I've learned for job self preservation, I share with others.

 

I just dont think you should post things like that if youre not willing to explain.

 

EXAMPLE

 

I have found a simple fix for the LRBHO. It works flawlessly with every mag and drum produced. Out of respect for the real businessmembers here I will not divulge any info regarding my fix. Have a good day.

 

TYBOY

Edited March 22, 2010 by TYBOY

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

OK, I'll come clean with why. I had suspicions about what may work with my S12 and I was fairly confident that it would solve my problem, but just wasn't sure as I am new to these wonderful weapons. This modification was not posted here. A member here contacted me, confirmed my suspicions, and asked that I keep that particular information in confidence. There is more to it than meets the eye. Things are tough right now.... even for some of the business members here. They don't show up to work and get a paycheck no matter what happens. I'm sure some of them, like myself, miss the days of being an employee. Small businesses need to hold on to what keeps their families fed and bills paid. I'm not going to be the guy to give it away. Please understand.

 

Besides, some real 'smiths might say that some of the things I did were completely dumbass, unnecessary, and would reduce the service life of the weapon. I did so much stuff to Saiga #2 that I really couldn't tell you what particular thing it was that took it from crap to worthy. I just know it works now.

 

I regret that some of you are feeling negative about this, I just wanted to know if I was "there yet". Everything you need to make the weapon run acceptably is already here on the forum and I'm sure I am not the only one here that has a running S12. Sorry....

 

ETA: BCG = bolt carrier group

I.E. bolt, bolt carrier, piston, etc.

Edited March 22, 2010 by evlblkwpnz

[TYBOY 33]

That I can respect. you came across like you (one of us members searching for answers) figured it out.

 

Not that my opinion means shit here but I can respect someone not giving out info they were asked not to.

 

I just find it frustrating sometimes that this forum seems to cater to the business members and long time members rather than the normal folk like me looking for answers.

 

 

TYBOY

[Wade Pruetz 103]

I took my S12s to a range today for some reliability testing.... in the rain. Both S12s are converted, not by me, and both have stock internals with the exception that one of them (Saiga #1)has a Chaos puck and both have Tapco FCGs. Saiga #1 has had some gas related work done to it (I call it Saiga #1 because it was the first one I bought). Saiga #2 has had gas work and hours of Dremeling, filing, and sanding done to the action. Saiga #2 was the first to be fired today.

 

I shot 80 rounds of Walmart Winchester 2 3/4" 3 dram eq 7 1/2 shot 1200fps 100 round bulk pack, 100 rounds of Federal 2 3/4" 3 dram eq 8 shot 1200fps 100 round bulk pack, and 25 rounds of Winchester "Superspeed" 2 3/4" 3 dram 8 shot 1200fps.

 

Mags used were 1- 5 round factory mag, 1- 8 round factory mag, 1- AGP 10 round mag, 1- Surefire 12 round mag (black), and 2- Surefire 12 round mags (clear)

 

I fired a couple mags slow, but mostly doubletaps, tripletaps, and all out mag dumps. I had 4 FTFs out of all of the ammo I fired, two of which were in each of the clear SGM 12 rounders using the bulk Wichester ammo. The first FTF was at shot 3 of 12 and the second was at shot 9 of 12, in Saiga #2. The third FTF was in the factory 5 rounder at shot 3 of 5 using the Winchester bulk, and the fourth FTF was in the 8 rounder using the Federal ammo at shot 7 of 8, both in Saiga #1. I noticed that the rounds were hanging up at the top of the feed guide? in both S12s(don't know what it is called.... by where the extractor slides in). I don't know if it is a problem with misformed cases, the mags, or just the sheer speed that I was firing was "shaking" the rounds into more of a verticle position. I didn't experience any FTFs at slow fire. Is four FTFs out of 205 rounds of cheap birdshot considered acceptable reliability?

Should I leave them alone, try some new mags, or try some better ammo.

 

Saiga #1 would not eject birdshot at before I worked on it (it was an unfired conversion). Saiga #2 would not eject or feed birdshot before I worked on it (it was supposed to be a 150 round weapon when I got it, which I believe to be true). In fairness to the members here who make their living tuning these weapons, I do not feel it would be fair to them to discuss in detail what I have done to my S12s to enhance reliability. I sincerely hope you can understand my position and find it honorable for me to respect the "bread and butter" of others here.

 

I had three failures to fire at rapid fire in Saiga #2. The only thing I can attribute it to is the fact that the hammer doesn't quite sit flush against the tail of the bolt when fired, causing the hammer to not quite push the firing pin in all the way. I plan to reprofile the hammer to eliminate this issue.

 

Anyway, today was a good day in spite of the rain and it is good to see my efforts to be 98% fruitful, especially since I had never even held a S12 until I bought my first one recently and didn't really know much at all about them.

 

 

 

Not to bust your balls but...what you are basically doing is getting on a public forum and saying like a four year old "I have a secret". If you were told something in confidence then pull or edit your post and not mention it at all. Like others have said most all of the Saiga builders on this site are more than willing to post what they know; if you are willing to do the research and ask the right questions it is there for the taking. Case in point, go to the NFA section where Tromix basically lays out to how build your own SBS. At this point I don't think any of the top builders have any big secrets just the skill and knowledge from refining their craft. Glad your guns are running right, as many have posted the Winchester bulk pack is the worst possible ammo for these guns.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Is four FTFs out of 205 rounds of cheap birdshot considered acceptable reliability?

Should I leave them alone, try some new mags, or try some better ammo?

 

This ^^^^ was the whole point of my posting and only one person here responded to the questions (Thank you, Spartacus). Why am I surprised?

[Wade Pruetz 103]

Is four FTFs out of 205 rounds of cheap birdshot considered acceptable reliability?

Should I leave them alone, try some new mags, or try some better ammo?

 

This ^^^^ was the whole point of my posting and only one person here responded to the questions (Thank you, Spartacus). Why am I surprised?

 

 

As others have posted, don't run Winchester bulk pack it is crap! 2% failure rate on guns that are fairly new is great, do the research I am sure you will find this is far better than the norm.