Biting the bullet and prepping for my first AR build.

[VaiFanatic90 360]

Gonna go with the Spike's Billeted Upper/Lower Receiver combo.

 

That's all I have so far XD

 

Scratch that. Gonna get the billeted Lower, I'll decide on another upper.

Edited August 26, 2010 by VaiFanatic90

[mgconnor13 206]

Dude ARs are super easy to put together. just make sure your pins are the right side and you have the tools and you'll be good

[MN.9130 44]

Just promise me you'll never shoot Frangible ammo through the damn thing. I just got back from a re-qual, and that shit gunked EVERYTHING up. They just switched to PMAGS, which seemed easier to load and unload than the GI Aluminum, but mine did NOT want to lock in properly without a He-Man slap or two.

 

In all seriousness, Caspian Sea Monster has some great info in a post somewhere on springs and buffers that should do wonders. Not sure if you're locked into a barrel length yet, but I'd recommend the -16 length, not the -4: you'll increase your effective range and accuracy, and your gas system will work like Stoner intended.

[VaiFanatic90 360]

Dude ARs are super easy to put together. just make sure your pins are the right side and you have the tools and you'll be good

 

 

Well, I always took apart my dad's service M4, so I know how to piece it together, it's just a matter of buying good parts that aren't gonna go to shit. I don't wanna shell the money out for a Colt. Just wanted some input in terms of what brand to go with. I've read a lot about Spike's and it seems they're pretty damn good for the money. Was originally gonna go with Bushmaster, but then I discovered Spike's.

[VaiFanatic90 360]

Just promise me you'll never shoot Frangible ammo through the damn thing. I just got back from a re-qual, and that shit gunked EVERYTHING up. They just switched to PMAGS, which seemed easier to load and unload than the GI Aluminum, but mine did NOT want to lock in properly without a He-Man slap or two.

 

In all seriousness, Caspian Sea Monster has some great info in a post somewhere on springs and buffers that should do wonders. Not sure if you're locked into a barrel length yet, but I'd recommend the -16 length, not the -4: you'll increase your effective range and accuracy, and your gas system will work like Stoner intended.

 

Not to worry, I'm just building my own!! I'm familiar with the do's and the don't's

 

I've seen people ruin their rifles, it made my heart break.

[mgconnor13 206]

Part 1 of lower

Part 2 of lower

I think the lower is the hardest part to put together

Hope this helps with the actually assembly

Buy good parts and take your time and do it right

Edited August 26, 2010 by Rusty truck

[VaiFanatic90 360]

I'm gonna go with a 16" barrel, but I'm thinking about making it piston driven. So many ARs I've seen and used have been DI so I'd like to try piston out for a change. Unfortunately, doesn't look like Spike's makes any dedicated piston uppers.

Edited August 26, 2010 by VaiFanatic90

[getitat 609]

Hello

I recently put together my first AR-15. I was eyeballing those billet parts from Spikes, then I held my enthusiasm in check long enough to try to rationalize that purchase.

Mil-Spec parts are forged. Forged parts are inherently stronger (denser) than cast or extruded (billet) parts. So other than the extra bells and whistles on those pieces, I just couldn't see the justification for the substantial extra expense. Nice, but for me, well, not worth the dough. I put my money into the best barrel I could find (within reason). It was forged, also (Daniel Defense).

 

JMHO....

-guido

[rjrivero 50]

I'm gonna go with a 16" barrel, but I'm thinking about making it piston driven. So many ARs I've seen and used have been DI so I'd like to try piston out for a change. Unfortunately, doesn't look like Spike's makes any dedicated piston uppers.

 

Call them. They are using Adams Arms piston systems on their piston guns. I'm pretty sure they'll get you a complete upper price quote if you call them. Also check with Adams Arms. I know they're making complete uppers with their Piston System. I have an Adams Arms system on my 7" Upper and it makes it so much nicer to clean it's ridiculous.

[VaiFanatic90 360]

Do Piston-driven ARs use different BCGs? Or could I replace it with that Nickle Boron plated M16 BCG? And I'll check out Adams Arms.

[mgconnor13 206]

some piston kits replace the gas key with a tab the piston hits. others use a dedicated bolt.

[VaiFanatic90 360]

some piston kits replace the gas key with a tab the piston hits. others use a dedicated bolt.

 

Hmm. Tough call. I've re-read the pro's and cons for both DI and Piston, I just don't know. I'd like a cleaner rifle for sure, and I've read that piston seems to be better for full-auto(which I intend to make this bad-boy full-auto for sure) and DI is better for precision.

[Casp 119]

GAAAAAAH I was typing up a huge response to this and accidentally closed the tab and lost the whole thing.

[VaiFanatic90 360]

GAAAAAAH I was typing up a huge response to this and accidentally closed the tab and lost the whole thing.

 

No D:

 

I can't seem to find any decent piston uppers for cheap. The bushmaster is $1,130, so I may just get a DI upper from Spike's. I've always been meticulous when it comes to cleaning, so it's no biggy. Also trying to decide on the kind of magpul furny I want on it. Gonna be another hefty penny for that too.

[rjrivero 50]

Piston AR's:

 

The biggest drawback of Piston AR's is the fact the op rod will strike the top of the bolt carrier group to cycle the weapon. This will cause the bolt to rock and you can get some wear on the bottom of the buffer tube. It can also cause a little issue with the carrier key. On Piston Systems that use a replacement carrier key that is a strike plate for the op rod, there have been problems with the bolts shearing from the repetitive force.

 

The thing I like the most about Adam's Arms kits is their proprietary bolt carrier. It's milled out of a single block of stainless steel, so there are no bolts to shear. It is designed with "ski's" on the bottom back of the bolt carrier to eliminate carrier tilt and buffer tube wear and the melanite coating is slick and really requires no lube.

 

The other benefits of this system include the fact you can take it apart from the front of the weapon without removing the hand guard. (Cleaning the gas system is easy.) The gasses vent forward from the piston, so there is no blowback to your face. (That also means that cleaning the handguard becomes necessary as well.) There are three gas settings: Single Shot which shuts off all gas, reduced gas, which runs with suppressors, and full gas for "usual use."

 

The drawbacks are the limited rails you can use with the system, but there are enough of the "good" rails that do work with the kit.

 

I know I sound like a salesman, but after looking long and hard, I did decide on this kit, and I will be retrofitting ALL of my AR's with the Adams Arms kits as funds allow. You can see them at this link.

[VaiFanatic90 360]

Piston AR's:

 

The biggest drawback of Piston AR's is the fact the op rod will strike the top of the bolt carrier group to cycle the weapon. This will cause the bolt to rock and you can get some wear on the bottom of the buffer tube. It can also cause a little issue with the carrier key. On Piston Systems that use a replacement carrier key that is a strike plate for the op rod, there have been problems with the bolts shearing from the repetitive force.

 

The thing I like the most about Adam's Arms kits is their proprietary bolt carrier. It's milled out of a single block of stainless steel, so there are no bolts to shear. It is designed with "ski's" on the bottom back of the bolt carrier to eliminate carrier tilt and buffer tube wear and the melanite coating is slick and really requires no lube.

 

The other benefits of this system include the fact you can take it apart from the front of the weapon without removing the hand guard. (Cleaning the gas system is easy.) The gasses vent forward from the piston, so there is no blowback to your face. (That also means that cleaning the handguard becomes necessary as well.) There are three gas settings: Single Shot which shuts off all gas, reduced gas, which runs with suppressors, and full gas for "usual use."

 

The drawbacks are the limited rails you can use with the system, but there are enough of the "good" rails that do work with the kit.

 

I know I sound like a salesman, but after looking long and hard, I did decide on this kit, and I will be retrofitting ALL of my AR's with the Adams Arms kits as funds allow. You can see them at this link.

 

Thanks RJ, I'm once again back to deciding between DI and Piston. Thought my mind was made up, but there are so many things that still seem to be wrong with Piston. The shearing of the bolts and carrier tilt are things I keep reading about over and over.

[Casp 119]

Okay, after cooling down and getting some food, I managed to completely retype what I was going to say earlier. Much of this is stuff I'm restating from other posts of mine, but I feel it's worth repeating (a lot). If you already know all of this stuff, I apologize (mostly to myself for typing so much.)

 

Hello

I recently put together my first AR-15. I was eyeballing those billet parts from Spikes, then I held my enthusiasm in check long enough to try to rationalize that purchase.

Mil-Spec parts are forged. Forged parts are inherently stronger (denser) than cast or extruded (billet) parts. So other than the extra bells and whistles on those pieces, I just couldn't see the justification for the substantial extra expense. Nice, but for me, well, not worth the dough. I put my money into the best barrel I could find (within reason). It was forged, also (Daniel Defense).

 

JMHO....

-guido

 

+1 The original Armalite and Colt design and US Gov't specification calls for all three pieces of the receiver (upper, lower, and rear extension/buffer tube) to be machined from 7075 T6 forgings. Cast or extruded 6061 is softer. The only "benefit" I can see to a 6061 billet receiver is that it looks a little nicer. Many of the external features on the standard upper and lower, such as the mag well fence and shell deflector, are formed entirely by the forging dies. It reduces the amount of machining required but results in a somewhat blunt, dull look. One could argue that the solid trigger guard of some billet lowers is more robust than the separate USGI piece pinned into the thin ears in front of the pistol grip, but the only time I have ever heard of those breaking off is from someone pounding in the trigger guard pin with a hammer without supporting the ear on the opposite side.

 

Also on the topic of strength of components, there are two different versions of the carbine buffer tube; commercial and milspec. Milspec tubes are forged and have rolled-on threads, while commercial tubes are typically extruded and have lathe-cut threads. Despite being lathe-cut from a larger diameter tube, the threads on commercial tubes are not the full height of the milspec threads and do not fully engage the threading in the receiver. Combined with the softer extruded material, there is a significantly higher risk that you will strip the threads off the buffer tube under hard use, or simply by over-tightening the castle nut during installation. The actual tube diameter also varies less from manufacturer to manufacturer when using milspec tubes, so you won't see as much slop using a tube from one company and a stock from another.

 

Personally I drive the trigger guard and bolt catch pins in with a pair of vice grips, with the jaws mummified in tape to protect the finish. Squeeze, release, tighten the adjustment screw, and repeat until the pin is flush with the surface. After that I drive them a few thousandth past flush using a hammer and punch, of course with the opposite trigger guard ear supported on a piece of steel. The only non-standard tool you need is the castle nut wrench if you're installing a carbine stock/buffer tube. Unless you intend to change out the buffer tube soon or often, you should stake the rear receiver plate into the castle nut using an auto center punch. If you don't own one, they are only, like, $10 at your local chain tardware store. Another tool that is nice to have but not necessary (I was too stingy and didn't want to spend the money) is the lever that hooks into the front of the mag well and allows you to pull the delta ring back very easily (if, of course, you are not going with a free-float setup.) It isn't necessary, but trying to pull the delta ring back far enough by hand while guiding in the handguard halves is a real bitch.

 

Regarding nickel-boron coating, keep in mind that you can now send your existing parts to FailZero and they will coat them for you, though I assume that service isn't cheap.

 

I still firmly stand by my opinion that gas piston systems do nothing but make the gun more muzzle-heavy. However, whether you use a short-stroke piston or stick with regular DI, I still insist on this: USE THE HEAVIEST BUFFER YOU CAN THAT THE GUN WILL STILL CYCLE RELIABLY WITH. Any autoloading firearm is a balanced system; the rearward gas pressure (or recoil force as the case may be), forward spring pressure, and static momentum of the moving parts all have to be in tune with each other for the gun to work reliably. If they are not in tune, the gun will cycle either too hard, resulting in a shorter lived weapon, or not hard enough, and either way you will have lots of reliability problems.

 

One of the many problems with the early Vietnam-era XM16E1 is that the buffer (the Edgewater spring guide) was too light, at only 2oz. On the mass-produced M16A1 they changed the design and stepped it up to 5.2oz, and the M16A2 and A4 still use that same buffer, and they both work fine. The carbine buffer however is necessarily shorter and thus weighs less, weighing in at 3oz and making the gun cycle too hard again. This is why the M4 fails to extract, rips the rims off of casings (especially when hot), and cycles faster which in turn contributes to the gun getting hotter faster and failing to feed. This is further exacerbated by all the metal that is normally removed from semiauto bolt carriers at the bottom-rear where they would contact the autosear, and directly under the firing pin head so that it'll jam up on the hammer instead of closing and possibly slamfiring a second shot if the disconnector fails (or some dumbass tries to make the gun run fullauto just by taking the disconnector out.) The easy fix to all of this is to use a full-weight M16 bolt carrier and a buffer at least as heavy as the one on the fixed stock rifle, if not heavier due to the carbine's higher gas pressure. Standard carbine buffer is 3oz, H is 3.8oz, H2 is 4.6oz, standard rifle is 5.2oz, and H3 is 5.4oz. I have also heard of people using the standard 5.6oz buffer intended for the R0635 9mm SMG on their 5.56mm rifles with good results.

 

ALL OF THIS IS STILL TRUE IF YOU'RE USING A GAS PISTON CONVERSION. What you are trying to do by using a heavier moving mass (rather than just a more powerful recoil spring) is prevent unlocking and extraction from happening too early. On the Stoner DI gas system, the volume of the gas tube acts as a sort of cushion protecting the piston from the brunt of the gas pressure. On short-stroke conversion pistons, there is no such benefit and the pressure hitting the piston is much more abrupt. Because of this, you should still use a heavy buffer on gas piston systems if you want them to run reliably. In fact, all the buffers I've seen made specifically for short-stroke ARs have been at least H3 or heavier. (These piston-specific buffers are designed to fight carrier tilting and binding from the off-center force of the piston.)

 

The other thing you could do of course is reduce the gas pressure, either by handloading your own low-power ammo (yeah, right) or reducing the size of the gas port. There are gas tubes and gas blocks (and some of the gas piston conversions) with manual adjustment available, and some manufacturers are known to drill smaller diameter ports on their barrels, but clogging from powder fouling becomes much more of a concern when you constrict the gas system that much.

 

With all the questions on possible problems with the various piston conversion bandaids and their steep prices, I say go with DI and spend $50 on an H3 buffer and be done with it.

 

FYI, this is what I payed for my rifle:

 

> S&W M&P-15 stripped lower, $163 out the door at the local shop

> DSA milspec buffer tube with standard spring, buffer, and hardware from AIM surplus, $39.95 shipped from AIM Surplus

> Del-Ton lower parts kit and A2/A4 front sight adjustment tool, $73.45 shipped

> NcStar rear sight and Tapco buttstock wrench from CTD, $36.66 shipped (I am not happy with the sight, NcStar makes junk, and I intend to get a Bravo Co. A4 carry handle to replace it)

> Magpul ASAP plate from GunEnvy, $31.84 shipped

> Magpul MOE buttstock from DSG Arms, $50.81 shipped

> Bravo Company 16" M4 SOCOM-profile upper with M16 BCG and standard charging handle, $533.95 (their standard uppers, less handguards, were and still are on sale for $385, > add $135 for BCG and charging handle)

>Magpul MOE handguards, polymer trigger guard, one PMAG-20, and one new D&H USGI 30rnd with Magpul follower all from DSG Arms, $61.23 shipped

>Bravo Company H3 carbine buffer and another D&H 30rnd mag from Bravo Co., $55.89 shipped

 

Total cost of the above was $1046.78

 

I haven't had the time or money to thoroughly torture-test it yet, but so far it hasn't hickupped at all for the first few hundred rounds of Federal and Wolf .223 Rem.

Edited August 27, 2010 by Caspian Sea Monster

[VaiFanatic90 360]

Okay, after cooling down and getting some food, I managed to completely retype what I was going to say earlier. Much of this is stuff I'm restating from other posts of mine, but I feel it's worth repeating (a lot). If you already know all of this stuff, I apologize (mostly to myself for typing so much.)

 

Hello

I recently put together my first AR-15. I was eyeballing those billet parts from Spikes, then I held my enthusiasm in check long enough to try to rationalize that purchase.

Mil-Spec parts are forged. Forged parts are inherently stronger (denser) than cast or extruded (billet) parts. So other than the extra bells and whistles on those pieces, I just couldn't see the justification for the substantial extra expense. Nice, but for me, well, not worth the dough. I put my money into the best barrel I could find (within reason). It was forged, also (Daniel Defense).

 

JMHO....

-guido

 

+1 The original Armalite and Colt design and US Gov't specification calls for all three pieces of the receiver (upper, lower, and rear extension/buffer tube) to be machined from 7075 T6 forgings. Cast or extruded 6061 is softer. The only "benefit" I can see to a 6061 billet receiver is that it looks a little nicer. Many of the external features on the standard upper and lower, such as the mag well fence and shell deflector, are formed entirely by the forging dies. It reduces the amount of machining required but results in a somewhat blunt, dull look. One could argue that the solid trigger guard of some billet lowers is more robust than the separate USGI piece pinned into the thin ears in front of the pistol grip, but the only time I have ever heard of those breaking off is from someone pounding in the trigger guard pin with a hammer without supporting the ear on the opposite side.

 

Also on the topic of strength of components, there are two different versions of the carbine buffer tube; commercial and milspec. Milspec tubes are forged and have rolled-on threads, while commercial tubes are typically extruded and have lathe-cut threads. Despite being lathe-cut from a larger diameter tube, the threads on commercial tubes are not the full height of the milspec threads and do not fully engage the threading in the receiver. Combined with the softer extruded material, there is a significantly higher risk that you will strip the threads off the buffer tube under hard use, or simply by over-tightening the castle nut during installation. The actual tube diameter also varies less from manufacturer to manufacturer when using milspec tubes, so you won't see as much slop using a tube from one company and a stock from another.

 

Personally I drive the trigger guard and bolt catch pins in with a pair of vice grips, with the jaws mummified in tape to protect the finish. Squeeze, release, tighten the adjustment screw, and repeat until the pin is flush with the surface. After that I drive them a few thousandth past flush using a hammer and punch, of course with the opposite trigger guard ear supported on a piece of steel. The only non-standard tool you need is the castle nut wrench if you're installing a carbine stock/buffer tube. Unless you intend to change out the buffer tube soon or often, you should stake the rear receiver plate into the castle nut using an auto center punch. If you don't own one, they are only, like, $10 at your local chain tardware store. Another tool that is nice to have but not necessary (I was too stingy and didn't want to spend the money) is the lever that hooks into the front of the mag well and allows you to pull the delta ring back very easily (if, of course, you are not going with a free-float setup.) It isn't necessary, but trying to pull the delta ring back far enough by hand while guiding in the handguard halves is a real bitch.

 

Regarding nickel-boron coating, keep in mind that you can now send your existing parts to FailZero and they will coat them for you, though I assume that service isn't cheap.

 

I still firmly stand by my opinion that gas piston systems do nothing but make the gun more muzzle-heavy. However, whether you use a short-stroke piston or stick with regular DI, I still insist on this: USE THE HEAVIEST BUFFER YOU CAN THAT THE GUN WILL STILL CYCLE RELIABLY WITH. Any autoloading firearm is a balanced system; the rearward gas pressure (or recoil force as the case may be), forward spring pressure, and static momentum of the moving parts all have to be in tune with each other for the gun to work reliably. If they are not in tune, the gun will cycle either too hard, resulting in a shorter lived weapon, or not hard enough, and either way you will have lots of reliability problems.

 

One of the many problems with the early Vietnam-era XM16E1 is that the buffer (the Edgewater spring guide) was too light, at only 2oz. On the mass-produced M16A1 they changed the design and stepped it up to 5.2oz, and the M16A2 and A4 still use that same buffer, and they both work fine. The carbine buffer however is necessarily shorter and thus weighs less, weighing in at 3oz and making the gun cycle too hard again. This is why the M4 fails to extract, rips the rims off of casings (especially when hot), and cycles faster which in turn contributes to the gun getting hotter faster and failing to feed. This is further exacerbated by all the metal that is normally removed from semiauto bolt carriers at the bottom-rear where they would contact the autosear, and directly under the firing pin head so that it'll jam up on the hammer instead of closing and possibly slamfiring a second shot if the disconnector fails (or some dumbass tries to make the gun run fullauto just by taking the disconnector out.) The easy fix to all of this is to use a full-weight M16 bolt carrier and a buffer at least as heavy as the one on the fixed stock rifle, if not heavier due to the carbine's higher gas pressure. Standard carbine buffer is 3oz, H is 3.8oz, H2 is 4.6oz, standard rifle is 5.2oz, and H3 is 5.4oz. I have also heard of people using the standard 5.6oz buffer intended for the R0635 9mm SMG on their 5.56mm rifles with good results.

 

ALL OF THIS IS STILL TRUE IF YOU'RE USING A GAS PISTON CONVERSION. What you are trying to do by using a heavier moving mass (rather than just a more powerful recoil spring) is prevent unlocking and extraction from happening too early. On the Stoner DI gas system, the volume of the gas tube acts as a sort of cushion protecting the piston from the brunt of the gas pressure. On short-stroke conversion pistons, there is no such benefit and the pressure hitting the piston is much more abrupt. Because of this, you should still use a heavy buffer on gas piston systems if you want them to run reliably. In fact, all the buffers I've seen made specifically for short-stroke ARs have been at least H3 or heavier. (These piston-specific buffers are designed to fight carrier tilting and binding from the off-center force of the piston.)

 

The other thing you could do of course is reduce the gas pressure, either by handloading your own low-power ammo (yeah, right) or reducing the size of the gas port. There are gas tubes and gas blocks (and some of the gas piston conversions) with manual adjustment available, and some manufacturers are known to drill smaller diameter ports on their barrels, but clogging from powder fouling becomes much more of a concern when you constrict the gas system that much.

 

With all the questions on possible problems with the various piston conversion bandaids and their steep prices, I say go with DI and spend $50 on an H3 buffer and be done with it.

 

FYI, this is what I payed for my rifle:

 

> S&W M&P-15 stripped lower, $163 out the door at the local shop

> DSA milspec buffer tube with standard spring, buffer, and hardware from AIM surplus, $39.95 shipped from AIM Surplus

> Del-Ton lower parts kit and A2/A4 front sight adjustment tool, $73.45 shipped

> NcStar rear sight and Tapco buttstock wrench from CTD, $36.66 shipped (I am not happy with the sight, NcStar makes junk, and I intend to get a Bravo Co. A4 carry handle to replace it)

> Magpul ASAP plate from GunEnvy, $31.84 shipped

> Magpul MOE buttstock from DSG Arms, $50.81 shipped

> Bravo Company 16" M4 SOCOM-profile upper with M16 BCG and standard charging handle, $533.95 (their standard uppers, less handguards, were and still are on sale for $385, > add $135 for BCG and charging handle)

>Magpul MOE handguards, polymer trigger guard, one PMAG-20, and one new D&H USGI 30rnd with Magpul follower all from DSG Arms, $61.23 shipped

>Bravo Company H3 carbine buffer and another D&H 30rnd mag from Bravo Co., $55.89 shipped

 

Total cost of the above was $1046.78

 

I haven't had the time or money to thoroughly torture-test it yet, but so far it hasn't hickupped at all for the first few hundred rounds of Federal and Wolf .223 Rem.

 

Well, some I knew, some I didn't. Either way it was a very helpful write-up, and a major +1. If that's the case with the billeted, then I'm just gonna save some dime and get a standard receiver for half the cost. I'm very familiar with cleaning a DI M4, so I'm just going to go with what I'm familiar with. All the piston uppers are a bit high on price. What I can really gather is that the AR-15 was meant to be DI, just like how our beloved AK was meant to be piston. I'm gonna stick with tradition and use DI. That said, I'll still most likely get the Spike's lower and maybe one of their uppers. I'm set on a 16" barrel and intent to put Magpul furniture on it. I've got plenty of mags, so I don't have to worry about that. I'll look up the service for the coating of the BCG, but I think the cost of shipping, then the service itself may run the cost right back up to just buying one that's already done. Who knows, maybe I'll find an upper bundle that already has it done.

 

Thanks though Caspian, much appreciated. And sorry that you had to rewrite it all, I needed the refresher anyway.

[22_Shooter 1,560]

+1 to Caspian. I'm a huge BCM fan as well. They are running ridiculous sales on their uppers right now, and as she pointed out; the standard uppers are only $385!!! (They don't come with handguards, BCG, CH or rear BUIS)

 

Money's kinda tight right now, but I'm really fighting the urge to pick up their standard 11.5" upper for use as an AR pistol, while it waits to become an SBR. I already have an extra BCM BCG sitting in my safe.........it's almost like it was meant to be!