Saiga Gas Settings

[biggie7297 0]

Just got back from the range doing my first test run with my S12. Little short on cash and my range only allows buck and slugs, so I opted for the Federal 2 3/4 00 buck. Bought about 6 boxes for $24. On gas setting 1, every shot resulted in FTE, and only one stove piped which concerned me. After a quick switch to 2, they ejected like butter. I only shot 2 on setting 2, because I know that for high brass it should be on 1 and can cause damage. Any suggestions?

Edited December 21, 2010 by biggie7297

[jcmacconnell 25]

Hmmm it shouldn't be hanging up with 00 buck on setting 1. Ensure you have either 3 or 4 gas ports. Before drawing any conclusions.

[TwentyNizzo 66]

I'd say there's an issue. It should cycle high brass flawlessly on setting 1.

[biggie7297 0]

It has 3 gas ports. I was disappointed when they didn't eject. My buddy's Saiga shot bird and buck on 1 flawlessly, right out of the box. I don't understand how these things happen.

Edited December 21, 2010 by biggie7297

[peaches 4]

err not good I've always keep my gas on 2 because I'd get FTE ever now an then whit high brass

 

i have three ports as well /:

 

so im guessing the gas-ports need to be bored bigger ? or another hole need to be made ?

 

If so, I am a bit disappointed

[biggie7297 0]

Me too buddy. I'll take it to the range within the next few days, give it a clean, and try some different ammo. I have a feeling it's going to be the same results unfortunately. Is it true it takes a month to send it to Armory? If so I'm going to be very disappointed.

Edited December 21, 2010 by biggie7297

[YOT 3,743]

Better sit down and do alot of searching and reading in these forums. All the solutions are here.

[TARE 47]

Saigas often need a few hundred round break in period for everything to become smooth enough to work on lighter loads than the platform is designed for. These rifles were intended to shoot full power 12ga ammo. If you have the same problem after you've broken it in then you will be justified in being concerned. If the gun dosn't cycle the 2-3/4 00 buck on setting one but will on two, I would run it on two for a while and every so often change back to setting one and see if you are getting FTEs still. If its not ejecting the 2-3/4 on setting 1 it isn't very likely to do damage on setting two with the same round.

[biggie7297 0]

I appreciate your advice, but I will not be firing anything other than birdshot on 2. Your looking for trouble shooting high brass on 2, the hammer will punch the hell out of the rear trunnion block. It will look like someone literally took a hammer to it. But I did take it to the range this morning, and had FTE on all 50 buckshot and few of them stove piped. Went to the ranges gunsmith, who has been dealing with these Saigas for years. He looked at her, and then we both went to the range and I let him shoot two more boxes. After the same results, he shook his head at me, which really let me down. And @yeoldetool, I've researched these forums for too long at this point. I sat here reading for a month before I even bought it. Not my first time dealing with a Saiga either. But after she just got shipped on 15th, it shouldn't be my responsibility to make sure its running at even the most basic level. I paid $500 for the manufacturer to do that. Anything after that I can diagnose myself. Thanks for all the help though guys greatly appreciated.

Edited December 18, 2010 by biggie7297

[BitBasher 11]

Federal sells low recoil buck that looks almost identical to their standard full power buck. The low recoil buck has around the same kinetic energy as crap wal-mart birdshot. What was the load number of the ammo?

 

F127 is about 1.1 oz of lead at 1325 fps.

This translates to a power factor 642.

 

f132 is about 1.1 oz of lead at 1140 fps.

This translates to a power factor 554.

 

Federal Multipurpose 1 1/8 oz at wal-mart is 1200fps

This translates to a power factor 591.

 

It's entirely possible that the buckshot you purchased had less kinteic energy than cheap wal-mart number 8 shot.

[TARE 47]

I know what you're talking about in regards to the "hammer punching the hell out of the rear trunnion block" (its not the hammer that does the damage to the trunnion block). If your gun will not eject 2-3/4 on setting 1, its not going to mess your gun up using setting 2 that would be if your gun was getting too much gas which it is not; once the break in period is over you may run that risk, but sounds like you're far from it. Im not an expert, but this isn't my first day.

 

Check out the ports to see if there is any metal or fouling inside blocking them, I use a small allen wrench and rotate it. I had a lot of metal in two of my ports, it was left from when the factory drilled them.

Edited December 18, 2010 by TARE

[biggie7297 0]

Forgive me, but what ports are you referring to? I plan on visiting the range again sometime soon, but it's just frustrating because its running me $40 every visit and I want to make sure it does not need to be returned. Don't get the impression I'm impatient, I just ship off soon and want to start modifications asap. And with the gas settings, I read from the manufacturer (not doubting your knowledge) that if high brass is shot on 2 and damage occurs, they are no longer responsible. And in no way could I afford to buy her all over again. So I'm just being cautious when I say this, because if in fact it is the weapon then I screwed myself. And I can tell you now that the federal buck I shot on my first visit was dirt cheap, $5 a case. But when I went to the range the second time and had the gunsmith by my side, I shot 3" Winchester and Remington with the same results. Thats why I'm a bit concerned. When I get to the range this week, I'll certainly let you guys know. Also note I cleaned her real good, hot water and soap on the bolt and dried her, gas ports, barrel etc. And no oil I think it runs better dry. Again thanks for input the more people that comment the better, so if you're reading this don't hesitate. God bless.

Edited December 19, 2010 by biggie7297

[lvkyle 9]

And no oil I think it runs better dry. Again thanks for input the more people that comment the better, so if you're reading this don't hesitate. God bless.

 

 

I think that's your problem right there.

 

These guns don't run better dry, especially if the rails, bolt, bolt carrier, and hammer haven't been polished. This is a AK OIL the shit out of her, just keep the Oil out of the gas tube/block. I agree some tight tolerance guns like ruger LCP ect need less OIL, but not the mighty Saiga 12.

 

I bet if you greased the hell out of the rails, and sprayed some Rem oil or CLP on hammer, and where bolt carrier makes contact with hammer, and where bolt makes contact with hammer, you would reduce a hell of a lot of friction which is obviously causing your gun to FTE.

 

 

Another test is fire the gun from the hip with stock resting behind your but. Does your action even fully cycle or does the round stay in the chamber with bolt closed???

 

I say you have a under gassed gun a long with no oil and high friction causing your FTE.

 

Have you tried shooting any Slugs?

 

What you have to remember is these guns like AK's have very loose tolerances and every gun is somewhat different which is why you need to do so much tinkering to get Drums ect to fit right.

Are any of your gas ports fully blocked by the gas block? Can you fit a paper clip in them down into the barrel? My saiga 12 which started out as vodka special I could barley fit a bent needle down into one of my mostly covered ports which was also barley drilled all the way through. Paper clip wouldn't even fit...

 

IF you read these forums for 1 month you should of known what you were getting your self into. These guns are shipped from Russia, and its been reported here many/most coming in are Vodka specials and require work to run right. Some get lucky, I didn't, so instead I took it upon my self to fix the problems instead of sending it in. All that's required to work on these guns successfully is a $25-30 dremel polishing/grinding/cutting kit. A rubber mallet, hammer, a few punches, and a lot of spare time.

 

Good luck

Edited December 19, 2010 by Kalashnikov Kyle

[YOT 3,743]

Part of the kit that comes with it is an OIL BOTTLE.

[biggie7297 0]

When I said dry I did not mean the rails. The rails I always oil, But I did not oil the hammer. Second of all I cleaned her after my two range visits, so she has not been fired dry. I did not oil the hammer simply because the gunsmith whos also an AK-style weapon expert, told me not to because his devolped too much grit. But I will do this. I have fired slugs with the same result, and I did the paper clip test on the gas ports and they need some readjusting. Guess we'll see what happens. I do know what i'm getting myself into, but above all I appreciate the advice given to me so please don't throw shots at me I got enough bullshit to deal with. We all need to start somewhere, and as time progresses so will my knowledge of the Saiga especially with the help of you guys. Thanks again everyone.

Edited December 20, 2010 by biggie7297

[anyuta34 5]

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[TARE 47]

"Forgive me, but what ports are you referring to?"

The gas ports; they can come obstructed, or become obstructed, the result would be like having smaller or less ports which would give you an under-gassed system

[btr 15]

I am assuming you screw the gas plug down all the way and then back it out to 1, right?

 

You may with to back it out another turn past 2, then back to 1 again. That will allow a little more gas to work the action. That's what I have to do with to use buckshot with the stock plug on 1 with my gun.

 

This is what Will from Red Jacket recommended for my gun, and it worked. I bought an MD Arms plug, but haven't tried it yet, that might be an option for you also.

 

Federal bulkpack (1 and 1/8 oz) works well on setting 2 on my gun after I broke it in.

 

See if you can find a different range, try some birdshot on 2.

[biggie7297 0]

Yes I do screw the gas plug all the way down then back to 1, and I see what you're saying because sometimes I feel like its too tight. But before this, I decided to take a paper clip and bend her into the gas ports. I gently applied some pressure and they punched through into the barrel, I guess they were not thoroughly drilled. I oiled the rails and hammer, and took her to the range tonight. Not 1 FTE. I shot 2 3/4 Winchester 00 Buck, and she ran through all 50 no problem. Want to once again thank everyone for the help, and happy holidays.

Edited December 21, 2010 by biggie7297

[lvkyle 9]

Yes I do screw the gas plug all the way down then back to 1, and I see what you're saying because sometimes I feel like its too tight. But before this, I decided to take a paper clip and bend her into the gas ports. I gently applied some pressure and they punched through into the barrel, I guess they were not thoroughly drilled. I oiled the rails and hammer, and took her to the range tonight. Not 1 FTE. I shot 2 3/4 Winchester 00 Buck, and she ran through all 50 no problem. Want to once again thank everyone for the help, and happy holidays.

 

yay congrats. Now the next step is getting her to fire federal birdshot value packs reliably

 

This forum is the best resource, and you will get way more answers here than any "AK range master" lol. In fact you are probably more knowledgeable now than most saiga 12 owners that go to your range.

 

Keep reading brotha!

[YOT 3,743]

Glad to hear it Biggie! Happy Holidays.

[Ohthejoy 0]

I know what you're talking about in regards to the "hammer punching the hell out of the rear trunnion block" (its not the hammer that does the damage to the trunnion block). If your gun will not eject 2-3/4 on setting 1, its not going to mess your gun up using setting 2 that would be if your gun was getting too much gas which it is not; once the break in period is over you may run that risk, but sounds like you're far from it. Im not an expert, but this isn't my first day.

 

Check out the ports to see if there is any metal or fouling inside blocking them, I use a small allen wrench and rotate it. I had a lot of metal in two of my ports, it was left from when the factory drilled them.

Hey Tare that's interesting... I put one of MD Arms V-plugs in my stock Saiga 12 today and shot it a bit. I noticed it needs to be on setting #4 to cycle high brass through a 10 round AGP and setting 5 (+) to cycle high brass in an MD Arms 20 round drum. I was wondering if this was going to kill my S12, but perhaps not? I know the gun is not broke in yet. I'm guessing I'm about 150 rounds away. But, sounds like it will be ok until the thing is broke in and then it might hurt it if I keep it wide open using a drum...I'm on the right track??