charles4400 1 Posted March 2, 2011 Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 (edited) I know in theory that rails with a red dot or an iron sight mounted just on the dusctcover is supposed to lose zero to some degree as the dust cover is opened and closed. I've seen many pictures of rear HK sights mounted this way and wonder exsactly how much zero is actually lost using the irons like this? For those of you who have the rear hk sight mounted like this, have you experieced a significant loss in zero? If you have a rail on the dustcover and tried a red dot, how much of a shift in zero did you notice? I know there are other alternatives out there like the Chaos rails, dogleg rails and of course side mount rail, but I have an opportunity to purchase an S12 with the welded on front HK sight and rear sight (with rail)welded on the dustcover. It would be great to hear from people who have or have had this setup...Thanks! Edited March 2, 2011 by charles4400 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alpha Kilo 42 Posted March 2, 2011 Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 Unless you're using slugs exclusively, your shots are never going to be in the exact same place anyway (for the sake of argument assuming they would be all in one hole using a scope mounted on a rail or whatever) My point being, it's a shotgun, not a precision rifle and the cover isn't going to move enough to throw your whole pattern off. (IMO) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gunfixr 76 Posted March 2, 2011 Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 (edited) I haven't noticed a loss. However, I "fit" the cover better than factory when I install HK sights, or any sights on the cover. The main thing is that the rear sight on the cover has much less weight and mass than a scope with mounts do. This will have a lot to do with flexing the cover around during recoil, and it keeping zero. I actually have the rear sight on the dust cover of my AK rifle, and it also works fine. Edited March 2, 2011 by Gunfixr 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
charles4400 1 Posted March 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 Thanks for the replies, good points and good to hear... makes sense since we are talking about shotguns. Any others? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mephis 82 Posted March 2, 2011 Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 (edited) If the dust cover isn't moving freely, and isn't getting severely cocked to one side every other shot and sticking there, I don't see why it'd cause any problems at all. The way the dust cover locks down, it should return to the same point every time unless it's damaged. Now, for a scope or something with weight I can't picture it working at all, in fact I'd think it would warp your dust cover over time. I'm sure they're "managable" on AKs or any low recoiling AK version, on a saiga 12 I can just imagine how much abuse it'd give dust cover with a heavy scope mounted to it. Since we're just talking about iron sights on a shotgun, unless your saiga shoots sub MOA, I really don't see this being any kind of concern at all. We're talking about a shotgun. I'm pretty sure even a light weight red dot would work fine mounted to the dust cover, unless you're wanting dead on accuracy with slugs. Edited March 2, 2011 by Tombs Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GONIF 7 Posted March 2, 2011 Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 I a'm a shotgun shooter from way back ,and IMHO the front sight on a shotgun should be as close to the muzzle as possible .You point a shotgun ,not aim it .All you realy need is a front sight for point and shoot . Just my take on it after shooting shotguns for 50 years of hunting with a 12 gauge . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mephis 82 Posted March 2, 2011 Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 I a'm a shotgun shooter from way back ,and IMHO the front sight on a shotgun should be as close to the muzzle as possible .You point a shotgun ,not aim it .All you realy need is a front sight for point and shoot . Just my take on it after shooting shotguns for 50 years of hunting with a 12 gauge . Ever used optics on a shotgun? Just curious what your take is. Especially how you would opt for mounting a magnified optic. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GONIF 7 Posted March 2, 2011 Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 (edited) Yes I have used optics on a shotgun ,but I found I didn't need it and put it on an AR (Eotech 552) .Were I to use an optic on a Saiga I would get a handguarg/rail combo fromCarolina shooters a forum sponsor . If you have ever shot Skeet or Trap and have good point shoot ability you will not need anything except a good front sight .Pratice is the key to anything from screwing to shooting . I a'm a shotgun shooter from way back ,and IMHO the front sight on a shotgun should be as close to the muzzle as possible .You point a shotgun ,not aim it .All you realy need is a front sight for point and shoot . Just my take on it after shooting shotguns for 50 years of hunting with a 12 gauge . Ever used optics on a shotgun? Just curious what your take is. Especially how you would opt for mounting a magnified optic. Edited March 2, 2011 by GONIF Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GONIF 7 Posted March 2, 2011 Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 Magnifyed optics will slow you down up close. they would be best suited for slugs over 40 or 50 yards . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mephis 82 Posted March 2, 2011 Report Share Posted March 2, 2011 (edited) Magnifyed optics will slow you down up close. they would be best suited for slugs over 40 or 50 yards . I learned how to do 2 eye shooting with magnified optics and I've found even the 8x on my PSL is reasonably quick to get on target with even if it's a blurred mess up close. I'd be curious to see what a scout setup with a 2x or 4x would do on a shotgun, I should eventually try it with my mossberg 695 as I don't care for having a scope that close to my eye with as much recoil as that thing has. (Thing needs optics regardless, with SSTs it'll give most rifles a run for their money.) But I do agree either pistol sights or a bead on a shotgun is really all you ever need unless you're wanting to put something in a 2-3+/-" area at some range. Edited March 2, 2011 by Tombs Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted March 3, 2011 Report Share Posted March 3, 2011 (edited) Ever used optics on a shotgun? Just curious what your take is. Especially how you would opt for mounting a magnified optic. Why do you need magnifying optics on a gun with a 40 yard maximum effective range? ETA: OK,OK... 75 yards with slugs. Can't see that far? Edited March 3, 2011 by Yeoldetool Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sandbandit0331 1 Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Haven't noticed any problems at all! In fact my body and I had to file front sight a touch and mine will do 3-4 in at 100 yds.!! In fact my buddy took a dough at 88 yds opens with it. All it takes is practice and a shotshell reloader. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mephis 82 Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 (edited) Ever used optics on a shotgun? Just curious what your take is. Especially how you would opt for mounting a magnified optic. Why do you need magnifying optics on a gun with a 40 yard maximum effective range? ETA: OK,OK... 75 yards with slugs. Can't see that far? Maximum range of 75 yards? You've been reading too much and not doing enough shooting, try more like 230-300. Not advisable for hunting level accuracy, but it will hit an 18" target much much farther than you'd imagine, it'll have killing power at ranges equal to most rifles, provided you can hit anything. Putting the stats into a ballistic calculator, 00 buckshot has a maximum effective range of 600 yards, while no gun will group out that far, in a perfect situation with some luck, the numbers say it will work. Edited March 4, 2011 by Tombs Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 We are talking about a shotgun here! My dustcover mounted HKs work fine for this purpose. I keep my cover tight and do not take it off every 15 minutes. On a rifle, I would consider hingeing the dustcover, or a dogleg mount. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AJ Dual 43 Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 Too lazy to look, but I'm pretty sure there are some AK variants, like Galils or Valmets that have rear dustcover sights, and while their original production tolerances might be be tighter than Russian, I'm sure they'd be just as prone to loosening up, if they were going to, under the rigors of military use and maintenance. If it's acceptable for combat accuracy in a rifle, it's more than fine for a smoothbore, shot or slugs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GONIF 7 Posted March 4, 2011 Report Share Posted March 4, 2011 (edited) For me shotguns are for up close,rifles are for distance . Too lazy to look, but I'm pretty sure there are some AK variants, like Galils or Valmets that have rear dustcover sights, and while their original production tolerances might be be tighter than Russian, I'm sure they'd be just as prone to loosening up, if they were going to, under the rigors of military use and maintenance. If it's acceptable for combat accuracy in a rifle, it's more than fine for a smoothbore, shot or slugs. Edited March 4, 2011 by GONIF Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 Too lazy to look, but I'm pretty sure there are some AK variants, like Galils or Valmets that have rear dustcover sights, and while their original production tolerances might be be tighter than Russian, I'm sure they'd be just as prone to loosening up, if they were going to, under the rigors of military use and maintenance. If it's acceptable for combat accuracy in a rifle, it's more than fine for a smoothbore, shot or slugs. You really should take the time to look first next time, they are mounted differently. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 (edited) Ever used optics on a shotgun? Just curious what your take is. Especially how you would opt for mounting a magnified optic. Why do you need magnifying optics on a gun with a 40 yard maximum effective range? ETA: OK,OK... 75 yards with slugs. Can't see that far? Maximum {effective} range of 75 yards? You've been reading too much and not doing enough shooting, try more like 230-300. Not advisable for hunting level accuracy, but it will hit an 18" target much much farther than you'd imagine, it'll have killing power at ranges equal to most rifles, provided you can hit anything. Putting the stats into a ballistic calculator, 00 buckshot has a maximum effective range of 600 yards, while no gun will group out that far, in a perfect situation with some luck, the numbers say it will work. There fixed that for you. Now, the difference between "maximum effective range" and "maximum range" is that "maximum range" is the distance a projectile will travel, and "maximum effective range" is the distance at which a trained shooter can disable his target each and every shot (note: "effective"). If you think that you can do that with 12 gauge slugs at "230-300" yards then you are an EXTREMELY skilled shooter and have a super accurate shotgun! As far as reading to much, I read a lot, but my experience with a 12 gauge shotgun didn't come out of a book. BTW, I'm not talking "perfect situations" and "luck". Edited March 5, 2011 by Yeoldetool Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AJ Dual 43 Posted March 5, 2011 Report Share Posted March 5, 2011 Too lazy to look, but I'm pretty sure there are some AK variants, like Galils or Valmets that have rear dustcover sights, and while their original production tolerances might be be tighter than Russian, I'm sure they'd be just as prone to loosening up, if they were going to, under the rigors of military use and maintenance. If it's acceptable for combat accuracy in a rifle, it's more than fine for a smoothbore, shot or slugs. You really should take the time to look first next time, they are mounted differently. http://users.rcn.com/philistine/galil/Galil_Diagram.jpg Looks like it's on the dust cover to me. What am I missing? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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