MrOneEyedBoh 14 Posted March 11, 2011 Report Share Posted March 11, 2011 Just wondering if anyone can give or has any Trust examples so I can get an idea on how to properly setup the Willmaker 2008. Looking to go for a suppressor possibly as my first NFA. But before anything else, I want to get the Trust worded properly and have it correct. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TO THE FLOOR IN A 63 121 Posted March 11, 2011 Report Share Posted March 11, 2011 Don't be foolish using Willmaker. It is not a template for an NFA Trust. It is a template for a Revolable Living Trust (and it is not even that good at that) and does not provide you the protections including legality of an NFA Trust. ATF may approve a trust but that doesn't make it legal and doesn't mean that they won't come back later and call it a defective trust making your possession of class III times illegal and in violation of the National Firearms Act. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
waltermitty 2 Posted March 11, 2011 Report Share Posted March 11, 2011 Don't be foolish using Willmaker. It is not a template for an NFA Trust. It is a template for a Revolable Living Trust (and it is not even that good at that) and does not provide you the protections including legality of an NFA Trust. ATF may approve a trust but that doesn't make it legal and doesn't mean that they won't come back later and call it a defective trust making your possession of class III times illegal and in violation of the National Firearms Act. in total agreement with TTF ! articles in Class 2/3 pub Small Arms Review recommending extreme caution as well Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TO THE FLOOR IN A 63 121 Posted March 11, 2011 Report Share Posted March 11, 2011 (edited) November 30, 2010 (Copied from David Goldman's blog) Have NFA Gun Trusts or Revocable Living Trusts Been Successfully Challenged by ATF? We often get questions regarding the use of NFA Trusts in regards to legal challenges to show that they are permitted under the NFA. While there are no successful challenges that stand for the positive or negative use of a NFA Trust, Trusts are not generally denied because the Federal statutes specifically authorizes the use of a trust for ownership of a item restricted by the NFA. There have been many applications with the ATF by people using other forms of Trusts that have been denied because the application or the trust was improper. The more troubling issue with a Trust is that there are many invalid trusts that have been approved by the ATF. The reason this is problematic is that many individuals feel there possession and use of these firearms valid because ATF approved the transfer. They do not realize that the ATF's approval is to a valid trust and while they may disapprove an obviously invalid trust, there is no requirement for the ATF to validate (nor do they validate) a trust. The approval process does little to shield the individuals from the liability that comes with an improper transfer, possession, and use of a NFA firearm and a Valid Form 4 or Form 1 to an invalid trust does not protect your right to ownership, use, or possession of NFA firearms. The traditional estate planning trust and many so called gun trusts do not deal with the NFA and actually instruct individuals to break the law in regards to transfer, possession, and use of the restricted firearms. This is why it is important to have a professionally drafted trust that is specific to the NFA and actually guides you, your family and beneficiaries thought the correct process of determining what to do in the case of your incapacity or death depending on the individual circumstances that exist at that time. For more information on how a NFA Gun Trust can protect you and your family from violations of the NFA Contact a NFA Gun Trust Lawyer in your state or a Florida Gun Trust Lawyer. see www.guntrustlawyer.com Edited March 11, 2011 by TO THE FLOOR Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MrOneEyedBoh 14 Posted March 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2011 True, but that guy could be using that to make more money. Not saying he is or isnt, but never know. Tons of people have done it successfully. And to make a :trust: for an NFA, well there isnt a right or wrong way. As its ( from what I've read ) is a loop hole kind of. I dont know about these 100% but from me reading on them more and more today , this is what I have read so far. And I did see that people were getting ( some not all ) challenged on SOME trusts. But this is why I came here, to see what others have said. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TO THE FLOOR IN A 63 121 Posted March 11, 2011 Report Share Posted March 11, 2011 Estate planning attorneys make money drafting trusts. That is what we are trained to do. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted March 11, 2011 Report Share Posted March 11, 2011 Why don't you just go form 4? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
beefcakeb99 572 Posted March 11, 2011 Report Share Posted March 11, 2011 Why don't you just go form 4? Because a trust does not require a CLEO Sig, as well as allows for a non taxed transfer to an heir. Not sure about the fingerprint thing but I think it eliminates the need for that as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
waltermitty 2 Posted March 11, 2011 Report Share Posted March 11, 2011 (edited) Why don't you just go form 4? Because a trust does not require a CLEO Sig, as well as allows for a non taxed transfer to an heir. Not sure about the fingerprint thing but I think it eliminates the need for that as well. while the trust/corp approval bypasses CLEO signature/photos/prints, be it CORP or INDIV Form 4-ed, the bequeathed is not taxed and Form 5 filed so in the end, the critical component is CLEO signoff, since photos cost next to nothing, as are prints. Edited March 11, 2011 by waltermitty Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kevin.rose0@gmail.com 62 Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 Because a trust does not require a CLEO Sig, as well as allows for a non taxed transfer to an heir. Not sure about the fingerprint thing but I think it eliminates the need for that as well. No fingerprints either. Not that they don't have about 10 sets of mine on file, at least 4 from this address. ... I have trust from David Goldman. The contents will be conveyed to the heirs, but he says it's not so clear that the heirs will be able to execute a form 5 transfer. IIRC, the ATF has approved them, but it's not something you should count on. So leave some money in the trust checking account to cover that. His trusts also are set up so you don't have to send an inventory of your trust to the ATF each time you file a form, which most template based trusts apparently do require. But the most important part is that it means the ATF won't arrest you for having an unregistered NFA weapon because you didn't have a valid trust. http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2009/05/batfe-and-seizure-from-invalid.html#more 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MCASgt New River 10,036 Posted March 13, 2011 Report Share Posted March 13, 2011 Invalid Trusts are a issue often talked about and from what I can tell, IMHO, a scare tactic used by lawyers to drum up business. Please anyone with GREAT GoogleFu please show me a case where a person was found guilty for illegal possession of a NFA item due to a INVALID TRUST. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TO THE FLOOR IN A 63 121 Posted March 13, 2011 Report Share Posted March 13, 2011 (edited) I'm looking in Google scholor but it brings up stuff like US v. Lopez and some of the other early cases. However, case law is not made on the initial case...it's made on appeal and usually not in front of the court of appeals but the state supreme courts. As the legal system works this will take years, probably close to five, and usually the whole thing is plea bargined away long before that so people can move on with their lives. Trust law is a complicated area of the law and both david goldman and myself have advanced legal degrees in Tax and Estate Planning. That doesn't necessarly mean that I know more then the next guy who has worked through it but certain principles are common knowledge. People can always do what they want and good luck to them... But usually people don't figure out that they screwed up until there is a problem or until it is too late. Those are the people who make their way into my office and call on the phone. The OP can do as he wants he knows the risks and the benefits and can weigh them himself...he doesn't even live in my state but as far as his comment about people making money on these trusts....I make 1 hour of pay and that's it so I really don't care. and think about what it costs to hire an attorney...ask Post appoloipic what he spent defending himself over the 1 year. and he eventually pled guilty on a plea bargin. Edited March 13, 2011 by TO THE FLOOR Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wade Pruetz 103 Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 NFA trusts can be set up for as little as $350-$400, that is a drop in the bucket compared to the money spent on NFA weapons and the tax stamps for those weapons. Just spend the money and do it right, why take the chance for $400. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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