txhogslayer 0 Posted March 15, 2011 Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 Not sure what's going on here, but a couple of things were happening on todays range trip. 1. Fail to fire. This could be from a bad batch of ammo (REALLY old milsurp) BUT I tried it with some new remington corelokt rounds, no problem. Silver bear wouldn't go either. Primers looked well hit, but she just wouldn't go bang. 2. No loading from the left of the mag. I've read about the 3rd bolt issue, but does anyone have a link to a fix for this? Now here's where it gets interesting. When the round would load from the left, I would get a FTF. When the round came from the right side of the mag, she shot straight and true. So in effect, I would get a light strike every other round. Admittingly, I had not cleaned her from the last range trip, using dirty old ammo, so I'll take the heat from the forum on that. But can the two problems be related? Thanks in advance. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted March 17, 2011 Report Share Posted March 17, 2011 I would have to start looking at the mag and the bolt lugs if you see any creasing or score marks on the next round to be loaded. Apparently its not going into full battery. Give the charging handle a good shove on each load and see if you feel it slip into battery. This may well correct itself with wear but use another maker's magazine first. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
txhogslayer 0 Posted March 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 Thanks for the advice! I didn't say it before because although I did try a couple of different mags (factory w/ csspecs conversion and one of the new Uinta's 20 rounders) the problem was occurring with both, which lead me to think it was a gun problem. I'll check the bolt. You may be on to something about the round not going into battery. Full disclosure, I did the conversion on it too (my second FCG conversion, so I know how it goes). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csspecs 1,987 Posted March 18, 2011 Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 You could have build up in either the gas system or chamber as well. Some surplus rounds use an almost tar like sealant that really gums things up. (OFV headstamp comes to mind) It could explain both problems. Feed from a magazine and bolt lockup are dependent on the bolt moving the full distance. Edit: Also check what Rhodes1968 says.. Could be the bolt catching something. But if you had ammo that looked dirty, odds are a cleaning could help. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
txhogslayer 0 Posted March 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2011 Yeah, I'm more and more leaning on that angle csspecs. The ammo I was using was REALLY cruddy. The first 30 or so rounds went down range no sweat. When it started the light primer strikes I cleaned up the bolt a bit and lubed it up. Fine again for another twenty rounds, then the jamming and ftf's. The more I think about it, the more it sounds like %80 dirty, 15% old ammo, and maybe 5% 3rd bolt issue (worked fine with steel case ammo). Going to give her a REAL GOOD bath tonight, and maybe hit the range again Saturday. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
txhogslayer 0 Posted March 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 Alright. Got her clean to the 9's! She was DIRTY! Lesson learned. Then I spent some time hand cycling with steel cased ammo until there was little to no scoring on the cartridges. No chance to get her to the range for a week or two, but dang it I think I might have her licked. Wierd though. My x39 could go plinking for ever with out cleaning. I guess the .308 is a little more sensitive? Oh well. I'm still a Saiga junky. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dad2142Dad 6,559 Posted March 19, 2011 Report Share Posted March 19, 2011 Good news, I don't think anyone could argue a clean weapon runs better, even if it was designed to run in shit Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csspecs 1,987 Posted March 20, 2011 Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 I have a theory on why some surplus seems to foul badly. I think some of what we are seeing was intended for bolt action rifles, which several countries still issue to their police and national guard equivalents. Bolt actions would not get any of the sealant into the chamber, as the case neck generates a seal that is unbroken until extraction of the case. In our semi autos the sealant likely is blown into the chamber by residual pressure as the case is being extracted. The sealant burns on in layers bonding with carbon and becoming a thick paste that robs power from the bolt. And yes both the .308 and .223 are somewhat more finicky as the cases are significantly straighter then x39. But I have not had a jam in 1000+ rounds, before that I had jam on a light powder charge. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
txhogslayer 0 Posted March 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2011 Good news, I don't think anyone could argue a clean weapon runs better, even if it was designed to run in shit I'm hip. I know, my granpa would be PISSED if he knew how long I took between cleanings. I was raised better than that, but hey, with an AK platform it's just too easy to be tempted to see if the "hype" is real (stomp on it in the mud, run through the dust, eaten by cows and melted into slag but will still fire!). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Little trick on cleaning the chamber. Use a shotgun bore brush dipped in hopps9, I use a 20gauge it seems to fit the chamber real well, DO NOT FORCE IT PAST THE CHAMBER! Spin it around a few times, some have used a drill to spin the brush but I am not that brave. Granted I polished the bolt lug and carrier for a different problem. I always do this after every trip out because lately Ive gotten away from steel case except for soft point SHTF ammo, buying all the German DAG surplus I can afford. Damned rifle loves the stuff but as CSS has pointed out, you vill klean das vepon Amerikan! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bookerbass2000 10 Posted June 25, 2011 Report Share Posted June 25, 2011 Well, back to the range with my 308 and still ftf's. I think it's a problem with the recoil spring. 3rd lug isn't dragging as badly, and steel cased feeds better. On brass case, the round wouldn't properly go into battery, bending at the feed ramp area, even when hand cycling. it would literally dent right at the shoulder. I think as they bolt travels over the next round, it doesn't go back far enough, keeping the next round from going into full battery. It's really pissing me off. So, I think it's time to call the smith. Tac47 ain't too far, maybe they can work on 308's. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SOPMOD 254 Posted June 25, 2011 Report Share Posted June 25, 2011 FTF= Failure to Feed or Failure to Fire? Have you cleaned your firing pin and extractor channels? Are the firing pin/extractor retaining pins all the way home?How does it function with the original 8rd magazine? Pictures of your bolt and maybe even a video of you shooting it would help me greatly in diagnosing your problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bookerbass2000 10 Posted June 25, 2011 Report Share Posted June 25, 2011 FTF=Failure to fire.Sorry. It functioned fine with the original 8 rounder, but I have since installed ccspecs 10 round adapter. I gave it a good cleaning before this trip to the range, but not the pin. I'm a little ignorant, but how does one clean the firing pin? Does the whole mechanism come apart easily? If so, I can check it out. I did a little light polishing on the bolt before hand as well, and hit the third lug pretty well (not much, just the barest amount, no bolt to the brain here). I'll get pictures up Monday. I'll be pretty tied up with work for the next couple of days. Thanks though! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csspecs 1,987 Posted June 26, 2011 Report Share Posted June 26, 2011 FTF=Failure to fire.Sorry. It functioned fine with the original 8 rounder, but I have since installed ccspecs 10 round adapter. I gave it a good cleaning before this trip to the range, but not the pin. I'm a little ignorant, but how does one clean the firing pin? Does the whole mechanism come apart easily? If so, I can check it out. I did a little light polishing on the bolt before hand as well, and hit the third lug pretty well (not much, just the barest amount, no bolt to the brain here). I'll get pictures up Monday. I'll be pretty tied up with work for the next couple of days. Thanks though! Did this start with installing the mag parts? If so take them out. A fail to fire can only be caused by a few things: 1. The bolt is not closing all the way. 2. The hammer is not hitting hard enough. Or is being stopped or slowed in its travel. 3. The firing pin is not contacting the ammo. Test. at the range fire a round, checking the bolt before each round is fired to see if it has closed all the way. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bookerbass2000 10 Posted June 26, 2011 Report Share Posted June 26, 2011 It does this with all magazines I've put in it, including the 1 factory mag I have left, both Uintas, an SGM and one of yours. The firing pin is hitting the primer, I have indentations on the rounds. So I guess that leaves me with a bound up hammer. I'll look at it some more. Is it possible the bolt is getting hung up on the triangle portion of the bolt rail? I get resistance there when I hand cycle it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bookerbass2000 10 Posted June 26, 2011 Report Share Posted June 26, 2011 Hey SOPMOD, I put some pictures up in an album. Having trouble getting them up here (my forum-foo is weak). Do you have any advice on cleaning the extractor and firing pin? Thanks! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SOPMOD 254 Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 Hey SOPMOD, I put some pictures up in an album. Having trouble getting them up here (my forum-foo is weak). Do you have any advice on cleaning the extractor and firing pin? Thanks! I made a thread with detailed pics and instructions. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/68365-saiga-308-bolt/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bookerbass2000 10 Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 Awesome! Great thread man! I know what I'm doing tonight. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bookerbass2000 10 Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 First off, thanks to all of you for the advice. I am learning a whole heck of a lot about my rifle! So, today I've got her all opened up, pondering my circumstances and as I'm futzing with the hammer, I notice that it has a lot of travel from port to starboard. So my current thinking is that this might be causing my issues. I push the hammer off to the left and rack the slide, it moves like buttah. As I repeat this, the hammer moves off to the right and the cycling gets rougher. OK, I'm thinking this shouldn't happen, so I rack it one more time and the hammer moves back into alignment with the disconnector. Rack it again, it moves a little to the left, one more time all the way to the left, like a freaking typewriter. This could explain why some rounds go bang and some just end up with dimpled primers, and some even fail to feed properly. Anyone else think this may be the culprit? Any good fixes for this? Thanks again! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 May as well fix what you know is wrong first. No washer installed I gather. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bookerbass2000 10 Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 I have a washer on the trigger group. Tried putting one on the hammer side, but it's still able to travel. we're talking just under half an inch from side to side. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 What fire control group did you install? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bookerbass2000 10 Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 dinzag modified arsenal 2 stage non-bho option. One thing I noticed is that I'm lucky it doesn't drift so far to the right that the hammer won't catch. It's pretty darn close. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vulcan16 971 Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 dinzag modified arsenal 2 stage non-bho option. One thing I noticed is that I'm lucky it doesn't drift so far to the right that the hammer won't catch. It's pretty darn close. Sounds like you may have a hammer that is modified for the BHO. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bookerbass2000 10 Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 That's what I'm thinking. Could have sworn I ordered the non-bho version, but I might have messed up the order. Need to start looking around for my old BHO. I feel like I'm way low on the up-slope of the learning curve here... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted July 1, 2011 Report Share Posted July 1, 2011 Sounds like a good plan. If you cant find it I am sure plenty laying around to be had. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bookerbass2000 10 Posted July 1, 2011 Report Share Posted July 1, 2011 Well I confirmed with Brian from Dinzag that I did in fact order the non-bho option. I must have missed a step when ordering and didn't realize it. And I threw my BHO away after doing the conversion. Luckily, Brian offered to swap out hammers so it's off to the post office I go. Jeez, I should read this forum more often... But then again, I've always learned things better the hard way. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bookerbass2000 10 Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 And she lives! FINALLY got to the range today with the new hammer and GTG! Thanks for all the help guys! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bookerbass2000 10 Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 sighting her in @ 50 yards. German DAG, Remmington COR-LOKT 150 gr, some brown bear and some el cheapo ammo I don't even remember buying... And the Missus posing for me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SOPMOD 254 Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 Hurray! I am glad to hear it! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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