DADSWICKEDAMMO 0 Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Hey new to the fourm Have 2 saigas 308 and 223 I was watching my son shoot the 308 (as of now bone stock) the bolt from time to time did not go fully forward by over 1/4'' at times but always fired so whats the deal anybody see this before seems to fire just fine just don't look right. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
beefcakeb99 572 Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Headspace? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DADSWICKEDAMMO 0 Posted March 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Headspace? NO! not headspace. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrThunder88 912 Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 I know that the bolt carrier on my .223 will travel a few thenths of an inch rearward before the bolt starts unlocking. I don't know if the .308 is the same. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SOPMOD 254 Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Hey new to the fourm Have 2 saigas 308 and 223 I was watching my son shoot the 308 (as of now bone stock) the bolt from time to time did not go fully forward by over 1/4'' at times but always fired so whats the deal anybody see this before seems to fire just fine just don't look right. That is very weird but the tail hump on the back of the carrier should keep the hammer from hitting the firing pin until the round is in battery. The hammer is probably forcing the bolt the rest of the way into battery before the primer gets detonated. There must be a lot of drag in your bolt and carrier and frame rails. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DADSWICKEDAMMO 0 Posted March 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Hey new to the fourm Have 2 saigas 308 and 223 I was watching my son shoot the 308 (as of now bone stock) the bolt from time to time did not go fully forward by over 1/4'' at times but always fired so whats the deal anybody see this before seems to fire just fine just don't look right. That is very weird but the tail hump on the back of the carrier should keep the hammer from hitting the firing pin until the round is in battery. The hammer is probably forcing the bolt the rest of the way into battery before the primer gets detonated. There must be a lot of drag in your bolt and carrier and frame rails. Yeah weird is right I was amazed at how far back it can be and still shoot now i was expecting that kinda thing from the 223 i converted but other then wreckin brass that thing shoots really well. maybe once i convert the 308 that maybe all it needs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Looks like folks may as well just give that bolt and carrier a good polish with a dremel on all contacting surfaces as a matter of course. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dlouis 0 Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 Are you sure of this? If so, it is an unsafe condition. If the bolt is not fully forward, then the bolt is not fully rotated and locked and it should not fire as it is out of battery. A weapon that fires in such a condition should not be operated until the issue is identified and fixed. A 308 bolt flying back with nothing more than the recoil spring to inhibit it can cause at best, injury and at worst death. It's not an area I would take chances with. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DADSWICKEDAMMO 0 Posted March 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 Are you sure of this? If so, it is an unsafe condition. If the bolt is not fully forward, then the bolt is not fully rotated and locked and it should not fire as it is out of battery. A weapon that fires in such a condition should not be operated until the issue is identified and fixed. A 308 bolt flying back with nothing more than the recoil spring to inhibit it can cause at best, injury and at worst death. It's not an area I would take chances with. You know I did not give much thought to the bolt not being locked in but you are right. I did some work on it last night got my handy dremmel out and smoothed all that the bolt carrier rides on as well as the carrier then polished it up action seems a bit smoother. So next trip out if this happens again I need to stop and inspect the ammo the case really with a case that worked. Thank you for the heads up Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rob-cubed 74 Posted March 22, 2011 Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 (edited) +1 to what dlouis said. If the carrier isn't fully forward, your locking lugs are not fully engaging each other and the rifle should be considered dangerous to shoot. Polishing never hurts but the recoil spring should have plenty of power to overcome a little drag. I don't think that's your culprit. Sometimes if the gas tube is not locked in place properly, it will cause the piston to bind up and hold the bolt carrier back. But anything causing the carrier to hang would be noticeable to you while hand-cycling the action. Does the carrier close up fully and smoothly with no round in the chamber? If so it could be excessively tight headspacing, you can check this by removing the bolt from the carrier. Test with live rounds from at least two different manufacturers (but remove the firing pin or FCG first!). Then see if the bolt rotates to fully close on the chamber with a round in it. A little resistance is OK but it should rotate almost all of the way with just finger pressure. Edited March 22, 2011 by rob-cubed Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DADSWICKEDAMMO 0 Posted March 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2011 +1 to what dlouis said. If the carrier isn't fully forward, your locking lugs are not fully engaging each other and the rifle should be considered dangerous to shoot. Polishing never hurts but the recoil spring should have plenty of power to overcome a little drag. I don't think that's your culprit. Sometimes if the gas tube is not locked in place properly, it will cause the piston to bind up and hold the bolt carrier back. But anything causing the carrier to hang would be noticeable to you while hand-cycling the action. Does the carrier close up fully and smoothly with no round in the chamber? If so it could be excessively tight headspacing, you can check this by removing the bolt from the carrier. Test with live rounds from at least two different manufacturers (but remove the firing pin or FCG first!). Then see if the bolt rotates to fully close on the chamber with a round in it. A little resistance is OK but it should rotate almost all of the way with just finger pressure. Was mowing the lawn and said to myself Self you have been havin a lil trouble with 308 shoulders 1 in 50 to 100 have a slight bump on the shoulder that keeps it from feeding not yet sure what the cause yet this weekend is tear down time from brassdies press and rifles 3 308s and see whats gouin on. Thanks for your input really helpful. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 +1 to what dlouis said. If the carrier isn't fully forward, your locking lugs are not fully engaging each other and the rifle should be considered dangerous to shoot. Polishing never hurts but the recoil spring should have plenty of power to overcome a little drag. I don't think that's your culprit. Sometimes if the gas tube is not locked in place properly, it will cause the piston to bind up and hold the bolt carrier back. But anything causing the carrier to hang would be noticeable to you while hand-cycling the action. Does the carrier close up fully and smoothly with no round in the chamber? If so it could be excessively tight headspacing, you can check this by removing the bolt from the carrier. Test with live rounds from at least two different manufacturers (but remove the firing pin or FCG first!). Then see if the bolt rotates to fully close on the chamber with a round in it. A little resistance is OK but it should rotate almost all of the way with just finger pressure. Good point on the check out. Well it isn't a little drag gouging into the top round in the mag on some these rifles, that is a bit more a little. Ive even seen some pics of holes gouged into the rounds and the Ruskies don't really seem to care or know or both. Thats ok this is a tinkers rifle in the first place, thats why so many of us bought it so fixing whats wrong is just a damn good time. I dont doubt a file or grindstone would be faster or perhaps ever required in some instances but you cant give that advice to someone without knowing what they will do with it. Its always a good idea to do a little bit first and resort to bigger tools only if needed. Its an issue, its correctable, and its damn good MBR when finished. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mephis 82 Posted March 23, 2011 Report Share Posted March 23, 2011 (edited) When it comes to taking metal off anywhere... Understand exactly what you're taking metal off of, where it contacts, and what it MAY be there for in the first place. Never ever assume something is there for no reason. Since the 3rd lug is rounded, you can see where it locks up into the front trunnion. As far as removing metal is concerned, see how much of it is actually making contact with the trunnion and securing the bolt in place when it's locked up. If you're not 100%, bet your life on it, sure then don't do anything. If you're positive, then remove and profile as necessary keeping in mind that it's going to be a long and painful road if you mess up. I used dial calipers and speced things out before I touched it with a file. Found out exactly how much of the lug is making contact and how much of it is just extra metal that actually never makes contact. Then I removed the spare metal allowing room to create a smooth profile and respeced my engagement surfaces to ensure everything was still safe. A ton of metal ended up coming off for me, I'm not sure how consistent it is across rifles, so your results may be different. In any case, hitting the back edge of that lug with a file just enough to chamfer it (ever so slightly) will get rid of it gouging shell casings. To get it running smooth is going to be more involved. I still believe there's parts of my bolt that needs metal added to it instead of taken away. I have no idea why they didn't make the face of the bolt have a lower feeding foot, but it certainly could use about 0.6mm worth of metal added to it. P.S. This might be the wrong place to ask, but using a mig welder and adding some metal to the bottom of the bolt, how long would I have to weld on it to have to re-heat treat it? Or should I just keep a tin of oil next to where I'm welding and drop it in as soon as I finish putting the metal on? I'm not well versed at welding on guns but I can lay a smooth roll of quarters with a gas-less mig. And roughly how hot should I have the welder set to weld onto what ever steel this bolt is made of? Any info would help really. I'm going to spec everything before I weld on it so if I do mess up I can put it back to spec. Edited March 23, 2011 by Tombs Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CJS3 3 Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 I had this happen to me right after I did a trigger conversion. I thought it was because of the conversion I did, and polished up ALL of the internals. Next trip to the range, the rifle still wouldn't go into battery. I used the heel of my hand to slam the bolt closed, but this became somewhat painful after a while. As I sat at the range line trying to figure out what I had done to screw up the conversion, the answer slapped me across the face. The ammo I had shot before the conversion was factory ammo. After the conversion I was shooting the reloads I had for my bolt guns. The brass I was using was primed when I bought it, and I hadn't run them through a resizing die. They were slightly out of spec and wouldn't properly feed in a semi auto. You might try different ammo next time you're at the range. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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