incognito485 26 Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Anyone have any experience zeroing with an Sgl31 and a POSP 4x24? I'm shootin about 8 inches high at 50 and have run out of elevation to bring it up. Way too much hold over. Any tips? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Anyone have any experience zeroing with an Sgl31 and a POSP 4x24? I'm shootin about 8 inches high at 50 and have run out of elevation to bring it up. Way too much hold over. Any tips? Is it possible that your side rail is canted? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
incognito485 26 Posted May 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Its possible. I'm not sure how I could tell by the naked eye. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted May 22, 2011 Report Share Posted May 22, 2011 Its possible. I'm not sure how I could tell by the naked eye. My SGL 31 had a canted side rail. Not by much, but enough to cause problems with a POSP. I had to crank the reticle high in the field of view. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Arik 565 Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 Have u ever used a posp? Are u using both dials on each knob? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jwiedy 10 Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 Have u ever used a posp? Are u using both dials on each knob? try this manual http://www.kalinkaoptics.com/manual/KOPOSPFixedManual.pdf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
incognito485 26 Posted May 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 Have u ever used a posp? Are u using both dials on each knob? No, this is my first, so bear with me. When you say both dials I'm assuming that you mean the top (black) and the bottom (silver) and they move together. But you can loosen the screws so that you can turn the silver dial solely to the position you need at for your zero. Does it serve another purpose? I thought it was just used to set the windage or distance back to the appropriate zero. With the elevation set a zero, and even higher than that a little, its still to high. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
incognito485 26 Posted May 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 Have u ever used a posp? Are u using both dials on each knob? try this manual http://www.kalinkaoptics.com/manual/KOPOSPFixedManual.pdf I printed it out prior to the zero. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jwiedy 10 Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 (edited) I think this is what he means by using both knobs heres a qoute from the manual. basically if you run out of adjustment you can loosen the screws and adjust from the bottom knob futher. then set the top knob back to zero without loosing what you have gained on the bottom knob. Step 2: If you were unable to bring the reticle into proper position you should have the range dial set to 50 meters (between the 0 and the 1) and the windage set to "0". Take aim at a target and fire the rifle. If the results are not dead on (see figure below) then you will need to adjust the reticle. To move the reticle to the shot (assuming you can keep the rifle in the same position as you make adjustments - otherwise trial and error will do the same thing...just take more ammo) you have to loosen the two silver screws on each dial. Loosen the screw but do not remove them. As an example we will walk through the above example. We need to move the reticle over to the right since the rifle is hitting to the right. Rotate the windage dial clockwise until the reticle is approximately under the bullet hole when looking through the scope (make sure the silver part of the dial with the numbers on it does not move (I had to hold the range dial with pliers)). If you have to pick up the rifle to do this or otherwise can't keep it on target you will have to do guess work when Edited May 23, 2011 by jwiedy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Arik 565 Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 Yep that's what I ment! You get close with the main adjustments then loosen the top 2screws and do the fine adjustments. Remember each time you loosen the screws u have to tighten them back and then shoot. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
incognito485 26 Posted May 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 Thx for the info. I was pretty frustrated all day with it. I'll take a look tomorrow. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TX-Zen 287 Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 (edited) Yep that's what I ment! You get close with the main adjustments then loosen the top 2screws and do the fine adjustments. Remember each time you loosen the screws u have to tighten them back and then shoot. Not correct really, the silver dials are for BDC, not fine adjustments. In fact when the top screws are loose or removed the silver dial doesn't move anything itself and turns independantly of the whole turret/black dial. It's how the BDC design works, by loosening the top screws it allows you to slip the silver dial back to 1 or 0 so that your range is calibrated properly. What the silver dial also does is acts as limiter so the turret only moves about 3/4 revolution. If you run out dial and can't get the reticule on target you can remove the screws and turn the black dial to get a total range of motion of 1 and 3/4 revolutions then lock the screws down again. Be careful with this because it's not hard to move the reticule far enough to send rounds over the burm if you're not careful and paying attention. If somehow you have adjusted the reticule all the way to the top of it's travel and still can't get to POI, I'd think you do have a problem yes. I've never seen a PSO or POSP have this issue (or having the reticule really high in the sight picture either for that matter) but I have seen it several times on the Romanian LPS/TIP2 scope that people often confuse with a PSO. It's not uncommon to have out of spec rails on PSL rifles and that's what can make the LPS reticule sit way high in the sight picture, but I haven't heard of a truly out of spec rail on an SGL series rifle, yet anyway. Zeroing The easiest way to zero the POSP is set your dials on 1 for elevation and 0 for windage. In the case of the 4x24 with Simonov reticule I set the elevation to 0 instead of 1, but still zero at 100m. The Simonov turret is calibrated in MOA not meters like most PSO or POSP's in 7.62x54R. Setup at 100m or 100 yards and move the turrets to point of impact. Once the reticule is on target exactly with point of impact you are effectively done and the scope is zeroed. During this part there is no need to loosen the screws or anything, just move the turrets and thats it. If your silver dial numbers end up all over the place it doesn't matter at this stage, what matters is that the reticule is on point of impact. This is the actual real working zero of the scope. To tidy it up loosen the top screws and carefully slip the silver dial back to 1 and 0 for elevation and windage for a regular PSO or POSP, or 0 and 0 for a Simonov POSP, then tighten the screws back down. This is for the BDC only and doesn't have anything to do with the actual zero of the scope. On a PSO or POSP calibrated in 54R setting the range back to 1 will get your proper BDC for range locked in, on the Simonov it will let you adjust for range if you know your MOA increments for the ammo you are shooting. For a quick zero just move the turrets to point of impact and you're done, it's really as simple as that. Z Edited May 24, 2011 by TX-Zen Quote Link to post Share on other sites
incognito485 26 Posted May 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 Ok, I see what yall are talking about with the scope, however you can move the dial say up 4 clicks to make more adjustment. Then when you retighten it you will be 4 clicks away from zero. The scope has only so much to room to go up or down or left and right, and I'm just out of that range. And yes it appears that my rail is slightly canted down, which would make sense on why I'm trying to bring it up so much. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 (edited) And yes it appears that my rail is slightly canted down, which would make sense on why I'm trying to bring it up so much. You might want to exercise your warranty option. Edited May 23, 2011 by Jim Digriz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TX-Zen 287 Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 Don't remove the screws at first, just move the reticule to point of impact. Only if you run out of room do you take the screws out. If you do you can turn the turret another full rotation, you should have plenty of room to get the reticule on target. Are you sure the rail is canted? Eyeball it from the top line of the receiver, not the bottom. The bottom is angled and gives the illusion that the rail is point down but it's not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
incognito485 26 Posted May 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 I've zeroed a few rifles, mostly AR-15's and I have a pretty good idea on how it works. But this doesn't make any sense. Plain and simple I have run out of the room necesarry to bring my reticule high enough to meet the bullets POI. The scope works great with some holdover, the rounds hit almost on top of one another. Now, I have to find out if this is a gun issue, or a scope issue. I'm leaning towards gun because I put the thing on my brothers Vepr and from the same distance it was hitting dirt. I know the rounds are different, but thats freaking huge. The side rail is not parrellel to the top of the reciever and does have a downward cant. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TX-Zen 287 Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 I'd be interested to see a pic of the receiver and rail if you don't mind, like I said so far I've never heard of an SGL rail being out of spec. Z Quote Link to post Share on other sites
incognito485 26 Posted May 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 Don't remove the screws at first, just move the reticule to point of impact. Only if you run out of room do you take the screws out. If you do you can turn the turret another full rotation, you should have plenty of room to get the reticule on target. Are you sure the rail is canted? Eyeball it from the top line of the receiver, not the bottom. The bottom is angled and gives the illusion that the rail is point down but it's not. Ok, so you're saying that when I hit my limit on how far I can turn the turret to adjust upward, I can unscrew the screws, turn the turret so that I can have another set of adjustments? But I would have to take the screws ALL the way out, would I not, and then have to pull it off and put it in another position? Lemme get yall a pic of the rail and see what yall think. Gimme sec Quote Link to post Share on other sites
incognito485 26 Posted May 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 It doesn't look to be that canted to me. Judge for yourself. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 I'd be interested to see a pic of the receiver and rail if you don't mind, like I said so far I've never heard of an SGL rail being out of spec. Now you've heard of two. ;-) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimdigriz 580 Posted May 23, 2011 Report Share Posted May 23, 2011 It doesn't look to be that canted to me. Judge for yourself. It doesn't need to be off that far to make a big difference with a POSP. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TX-Zen 287 Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 Ok, so you're saying that when I hit my limit on how far I can turn the turret to adjust upward, I can unscrew the screws, turn the turret so that I can have another set of adjustments? But I would have to take the screws ALL the way out, would I not, and then have to pull it off and put it in another position? Lemme get yall a pic of the rail and see what yall think. Gimme sec For the elevation the turret goes from less than the 0 mark to past the 20 mark, it looks like about 3/4 of a full turn. If you've run out of elevation at this point but are close it sounds to me like you can still get on target. Take the top screws out and you'll have an entire complete extra turn of elevation. It's not an extra set of adjustments, it's taking advantage of the full range of motion. As I said the silver BDC dial acts as a limiter and you only get about 3/4 a turn when everything is screwed together for normal operation. It's for zeroing that you can undo the screws and get extra range of elevation or windage, it's designed to account for some variation in rail spec or different calibers. This will put the reticule higher in the FOV but should let you get on POI. As far as the rail being canted it's hard to tell from the photo but it looks like the gap between the rail and the lettering is larger in the front than the back. I can measure my two SGL31's and my S12 if you want, maybe we can see how different the numbers are. If it's really out of spec I'd try to fight the Arsenal warranty fight and get it fixed, side rails are extremely useful and if you get into combloc optics this could end up being a PITA. Z Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TX-Zen 287 Posted May 24, 2011 Report Share Posted May 24, 2011 I was surfing through some pics looking at rails and here's something to see also, the middle SGL31-61 rail looks canted but I know this rifle is on target with optics. Let me get some measurements on the 3 rifles in this pic Z Quote Link to post Share on other sites
incognito485 26 Posted May 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 Ok, got that sucker zeroed today and its a tack driver. I'm not sure what setting the scope was on when I got t, but it was way off for the rifle. For those of you that run out if elevation, this is what I did. I loosened the screws when I was at 0. I turned the silver dial only to the 1000 meter mark ( moves the reticke down, clockwise). I then retightened the screws. I was then able to have the same amount if elevation to play with going up (counter clockwise). It also helped to visually check my irons and set my scope accordingly if your irons are on, to get you close. I knew that the point of impact (roughly) with my irons would be the point of aim with my scope. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
incognito485 26 Posted May 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 Thx for the help and info from everyone. TX Zen I figured that turret thing out the next time I went out. Sorry didn't see your post till today, since I replied from my phone, but thats exactly what I did. I didn't want the thing to be a sniper rifle, but shooting 1/4" groups at a 50 yard zero is good with me considering I was shooting just prior to that massive storm we just had. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
incognito485 26 Posted May 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 I was surfing through some pics looking at rails and here's something to see also, the middle SGL31-61 rail looks canted but I know this rifle is on target with optics. Let me get some measurements on the 3 rifles in this pic Z Your middle rifle has the same downward cant that mine does. Might be normal. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TX-Zen 287 Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 Your middle rifle has the same downward cant that mine does. Might be normal. Yeah it looks that way, mine doesn't seem to be causing me a problem. I measured the SGL31-44 and the SGL31-61 with the receiver cover on to see what the difference was. While not scientifically exact the -61 rail is definitely lower in the front. The -44 is even or just about even all the way like the SLR105 and the S12. For sure I know the -61 zero's properly with an optic mounted, I've done PK-AS, PK01-VS, 1P29 and PO 3.5 just to name a few and haven't even noticed there might be an issue. It could be canted but within tolerance so to speak. Thx for the help and info from everyone. TX Zen I figured that turret thing out the next time I went out. Sorry didn't see your post till today, since I replied from my phone, but thats exactly what I did. I didn't want the thing to be a sniper rifle, but shooting 1/4" groups at a 50 yard zero is good with me considering I was shooting just prior to that massive storm we just had. Glad to hear it, I figured you would probably be able to get on target after all. Z Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SergeK 15 Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 I had a similar problem with my PSL. It was great with my 4x POSP, but when I bought my 8x, it was way off. My zero was about 7/8th of the way up in the scope. I knew the rail on the PSL is good so I figured it was the Scope. Instead of sending it back, i got a really thin piece of metal and made a shim out of it. I took apart the scope base and inserted it in between the scope and the base at the front. If I had to guess, I would say the shim is about 1mm thick, if that. I went to the range the next day and the scope was right on, 100 yards the zero is just above half way in the FOV. This is how bad it was. If you are a math guy and know Trigonometry well, you can figure out how thick of a shim to place in there. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott Kenny 144 Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 And since I just did the same thing to my PSL, here's the math: One MOA is very nearly 1" at 100 yards, so for a distance of 1", one MOA is 1/3600 of an inch. Measure the distance between the leading edge of the scope mounts or rail mounts. multiply 1/3600 by the distance from the front of your front mount to the front of your back mount, and them multiply that by the number of MOA you need to add. For example: I was hitting 20ish" low at 100 yards and I was out of adjustments on my scope. I was using a Kalinka high 2-rail, so the distance from the front of the front rail base to the front of the back rail base is 3.5". 1/3600 MOA per inch * 3.5" * 20 MOA = 0.19444", so I stuck I .020" piece of aluminum under the back rail mount screw. Today, I was able to sight in acceptably at 200yds. Remember: Shimming the front moves your impact DOWN, shimming the back moves impact UP. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SergeK 15 Posted May 31, 2011 Report Share Posted May 31, 2011 Scott Kenny is the man, man. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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