AKMSF 6 Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 Wish I'd checked back here again before trying the polymer stock, built it up with some plastic epoxy inside and it failed hardcore, wasted $250 on this so far with no results. Trying to decide whether to try with a solid wood stock or just give up and buy some sort of regular ACE stock someday. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 got pics of the failure? I am thinking possibly running a button head cap screws into your epoxy plug from the outside could solve your problems. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKMSF 6 Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 The epoxy had the consistency of modeling clay, obviously something went very wrong but the buttstock ripped out of the screws when I tried to unfold it. I used J-B Kwik Plastic, thinking it would adhere well to the plastic. I think I will just go with the standard bulgarian wood set that AZG used. Anybody know whose rifle this is and have a pic of the stock unfolded? This is what I'd like to do: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gregomega 929 Posted November 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 . Anybody know whose rifle this is and have a pic of the stock unfolded? This is what I'd like to do: ItsAllCreated One of the, if not the best ive seen so far. shes perdy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrThunder88 912 Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 (edited) AKMSF, do you have any pics of either of the breakages? I'm having a hard time visualizing what happened to your poly stock. If that was the plum stock you'd mentioned earlier, I'm sorry to hear it. Those are nice. It might not be a total loss, though. It would help to diagnose the problems if we could see it though. Edited November 17, 2011 by DrThunder88 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKMSF 6 Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 I could take some pics tonight, but the problem really was that I used a pretty poor filler material. The JB epoxy could not hold up to any stress and I could wiggle the stock by hand. It sure likes to stick to plastic though, so the stock is pretty much a total loss. The Laminated wood split down the laminate, and was instantly wobbly at the range. The screws also loosened up from just playing with the mount. New plan is to get the Bulgy wood stock set and use some 3" or so wood screws and really bolt it in there. AZG, did you drill pilot holes on the stock you made before you put the screws in? Also it looks like ItsAllCreated chopped off some of the stock past the tang, to get the standard LOP, like I have done in both instances. Did you use a hand saw or power saw to chop the stock? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 Use threaded inserts NOT wood screws. The threaded inserts are available where furniture hardware is sold. Get the ones that go into a 1/4" drilled hole and set them in two part epoxy. The right inserts will accept 10-32 machine screws, and will eliminate the splitting problem. Wood screws are a 'spiral wedge' and force the wood apart. The inserts are epoxied in place and hold by a solid bond, not wedging action. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrThunder88 912 Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 (edited) Avoid the screw-in inserts for the same reason the laminate stock delaminated. I made the mistake of using the screw-in variety on my Nornico Hunter, and it split the solid wood block I was working on. Oh, and I got both the Bulgarian polymer stock and Romanian laminate stocks out to the range today. So far, HUGE SUCCESS! Edited November 18, 2011 by DrThunder88 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKMSF 6 Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 Any pics of your polymer folder? What stock did you use and how did you do it? I still have a russian plum stock I could try...but it would be a crime to destroy it. Here are pictures of the failures. In the wood stock one of the screws stripped so I had to cut it off to get the mount off. The epoxy in the polymer stock was nice and sturdy...until I drilled it. It is mushy enough not to hold the screws, but impossible to get out of the stock. $120+ worth of stocks destroyed... If you got this to work with a standard K-Var or other polymer stock PLEASE tell me how! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gregomega 929 Posted November 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 I still have a russian plum stock I could try...but it would be a crime to destroy it. Then don't. It is mushy enough not to hold the screws, but impossible to get out of the stock. Looks/sounds fixable to me. I personally wouldnt have chosen the laminated stock to begin with or would have taken precautions so that wouldn't happen. you were kind of asking for it with that stock. The polymer one, if its mushy, perhaps you might have waited longer for it to dry. maybe try digging it out again. I'm sure it'll come out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKMSF 6 Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 Tried digging it out, it still is not solid enough to screw into but it has bonded to the plastic of the stock. Not coming off. I'm waiting on DrThunder88's response as to how he got the poly to work, then I might try one of the K-Var polymer stocks on scratch n' dent clearance. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
madmax4x4 68 Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 insert folding wood joke here at a later time. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrThunder88 912 Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 You don't know how many times I had to cut and reshoot my video because I made references to filling butt holes. AKMSF, I'm working on a step-by-step video as we speak. If I'm lucky, it'll be ready by Sunday. Just from your photographs, however, it looks like the problem lies with relying on the shear strength of the epoxy more than anything else. Even if a more structurally sound epoxy had been used and the screws were embedded rather than driven into it, this might still have been a problem. I'm figuring heavily on using the compressive strength of epoxy by running machine screws from the rear of the epoxy plug and threading into the folding mechanism. It's hard to describe, but so far it's been holding up well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 That plastic looks pretty fixable. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrThunder88 912 Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 I am very gradually uploading the project videos, which, unfortunately, is messing with my ability to edit annotations. For some reason YouTube is also not recommending the next videos in the series, so the best I can do right now is suggest checking out my channel page and looking for the most recent uploads in the right-hand frame. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gregomega 929 Posted November 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 I am very gradually uploading the project videos, which, unfortunately, is messing with my ability to edit annotations. For some reason YouTube is also not recommending the next videos in the series, so the best I can do right now is suggest checking out my channel page and looking for the most recent uploads in the right-hand frame. Great job! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrThunder88 912 Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 (edited) Thanks! I've got to say, I never would have thought to work on it if we hadn't gotten to see your success with your stock. Good work as well! Here are some photos for those who don't want to sit through (finally playlisted): Edited November 22, 2011 by DrThunder88 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bikermutt07 10 Posted November 24, 2011 Report Share Posted November 24, 2011 (edited) I'm just a carpenter but, every since I first saw this thread I have had this thought: Cut the stock the length you would like, line up the holes and mark them. Then drill to holes the entire length of the stock ( long bits can be had at hardware stores ). Find some long ( proper length bolts with 10/32 threads or make your own ) and thread them in from the rear of the stock. You could even chisel out a cavity for a plate on the back of the buttstock to strenghen up the application. I think having it bolted the entire length of the stock would tighten it all up. Take it with a grain of salt if you will. I haven't tried this nor plan to, it's just been sitting in the back of this ole wood butchers head. Hope this helps someone. Edited November 24, 2011 by bikermutt07 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKMSF 6 Posted November 24, 2011 Report Share Posted November 24, 2011 Awesome videos, DrThunder, really enjoyed them! Great work on those stocks and an innovative idea for the laminated stock in particular. Keep us posted on how they hold up in the long run. Unfortunately, I have already drilled the threads and some big dimples out of my ACE folding mech for the first attempt at this project, so I can't go with any sort of threaded bolts. I am just going to follow AZG's original instructions as closely as I can I think, with some suggestions from ItsAllCreated like 1" extra to maintain OAL, pilot holes for the screws, and maybe I'll use 2-3" long wood screws just to get an even more sturdy connection. Luckily I found many pictures of Russian AK-74s with wood stocks and plum handguards/grips, so I will be able to maintain some degree of "authenticity" in the furniture combination after all. Looking forward to getting this project finished once and for all here and moving on to a Valmet-inspired Saiga project this winter. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrThunder88 912 Posted November 27, 2011 Report Share Posted November 27, 2011 How wide is the countersinking on your hinge? I'm imagining drilling it out the rest of the way to about 1/4" or 3/8", threading for the larger size, inserting a stud, and setting the stud into corresponding holes in the stock using epoxy. That particular stock would be permanently affixed to that particular hinge, but it could work in such a way that doesn't rely as heavily on stressing the laminations. I also don't think that plum stock is beyond repair. Gouging out the soft epoxy would take a little doing, but it looks fixable. I'm just a carpenter but, every since I first saw this thread I have had this thought: Cut the stock the length you would like, line up the holes and mark them. Then drill to holes the entire length of the stock ( long bits can be had at hardware stores ). Find some long ( proper length bolts with 10/32 threads or make your own ) and thread them in from the rear of the stock. You could even chisel out a cavity for a plate on the back of the buttstock to strenghen up the application. I think having it bolted the entire length of the stock would tighten it all up. Take it with a grain of salt if you will. I haven't tried this nor plan to, it's just been sitting in the back of this ole wood butchers head. Hope this helps someone. That could work. On the laminate stock I was working on, the holes would meet up with the upper 20mm hole. The interior of the channel might need a bearing plate of some sort made out of an appropriately sized washer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted November 29, 2011 Report Share Posted November 29, 2011 great videos! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKMSF 6 Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 (edited) OK so I am about to try Take 3 at this. I got the Bulgarian AK-74 stock that AZG and ItsAllCreated used, the red mahogany stain is drying now, and it will get the spray on semi-gloss poly tonight. I got a pair of 2 1/2" 10# Stainless Steel sheet metal screws (recommended at the hardware store over deck screws). I am going to pre-drill with a 9/64 drill bit and then mount the screws. Any recommendations/cautions before I do this? Edited December 12, 2011 by AKMSF Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gregomega 929 Posted December 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 Take your time, measure thrice cut/drill once. Be careful. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKMSF 6 Posted December 12, 2011 Report Share Posted December 12, 2011 Do you have to be really gentle when folding and unfolding the wood stock, or can you sort of give it a quick pull to open it like the regular ACE stocks? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gregomega 929 Posted December 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 I would just swing mine open and it would lock right up. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrThunder88 912 Posted December 13, 2011 Report Share Posted December 13, 2011 Sounds like you're all set! As AZG says, careful prep usually makes for the best results. Good luck! great videos! Thanks! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 One thing I don't understand Dr.Thunder is why each gun is half wood half plastic. Why not swap the stocks on those two? I think your Poly stock looks cleaner. Tried digging it out, it still is not solid enough to screw into but it has bonded to the plastic of the stock. Not coming off. I'm waiting on DrThunder88's response as to how he got the poly to work, then I might try one of the K-Var polymer stocks on scratch n' dent clearance. If it is hard to dig out, then Drill it out. You could probably get the rest of the residue to come off the walls with a wood chisel. Then do just like the above video for the poly stock and you will be happy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKMSF 6 Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 One thing I don't understand Dr.Thunder is why each gun is half wood half plastic. Why not swap the stocks on those two? I think your Poly stock looks cleaner. Tried digging it out, it still is not solid enough to screw into but it has bonded to the plastic of the stock. Not coming off. I'm waiting on DrThunder88's response as to how he got the poly to work, then I might try one of the K-Var polymer stocks on scratch n' dent clearance. If it is hard to dig out, then Drill it out. You could probably get the rest of the residue to come off the walls with a wood chisel. Then do just like the above video for the poly stock and you will be happy. No need, the polyurethane top-coat is drying on my wood stock and I am picking up the drill tonight. Project should be done tomorrow morning and I might even get to go shoot it! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrThunder88 912 Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) One thing I don't understand Dr.Thunder is why each gun is half wood half plastic. Why not swap the stocks on those two? I think your Poly stock looks cleaner. The Bulgarian is all poly. Those handguards are Bakelite. Either way, both of those were installed temporarily. The Norinco went back to its Ace stock and the Bulgarian went back to the fixed DPH. I've got to get some more rifles to put these stocks on, I guess! You're right that the polymer stock looks cleaner. If I can get another wood stock for cheap, I might try again along the lines of bikermutt's suggestion. It'd be a couple long holes to try to drill straight, but it would look much nicer. I've also got some ideas on making the poly stock easier to make, but I'll need another one of those as well. Edited December 14, 2011 by DrThunder88 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AKMSF 6 Posted December 14, 2011 Report Share Posted December 14, 2011 Almost there... then disaster strikes. I was tightening it down when one of the holes stripped and the wood screw just came out. Any tips on how to fill/build up the hole again so I can try again, maybe with a longer screw? One of the screws is in there good, I used an AK stock screw, they are pretty big with some good threads. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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