Co- Witness question

[thumbs1 1]

Never thought about Co-Witness before so I know not of what is speak. I just mounted my TRS-25 on a TWS mount with the TWS peep sight. The question is......... When I turn on the red dot the dot does sit on top of the iron post when using the red dot. If I move my eye to use the peep the red dot is off to the left and down in relation to the front iron sight. I am thinking this is normal because I moved the angle of my eye in effect making the dot appear to move.

 

Is this correct? The dot shouldn't be in the same place whether I use the dot of the peep? May be a dumb question but I don't know the answer.

[Parf 19]

If you move the dot in the sight to lie on top of the front sight post, but only when looking through correctly aligned iron sights, your red dot will be co-witnessed with your iron sights. You will also have a pretty good starting point for sighting your dot in at range. If you haven't sighted it in at the range, yet I suggest you do this until you can.

[tony71 0]

Co wintness does not mean you are looking at the red dot with your front sight at the same time- really no point right? It is the ability to use the iron sight when the rds goes down. And, yes the dot might shift depending on your cheekweld.

[Parf 19]

Co-witness means that if you choose to use your iron sights, the red dot should be superimposed over your front sight post. If you look over the sights, both eyes open, the dot will be floating somewhere in the center of the tube. If it's not there, drop your eye down to the irons. This helps you get more reps in automatically achieving a better cheek weld with the stock. At least for me, those extra reps training in a better cheek weld make me faster on rapid strings of fire on multiple targets. If the dot is dead or I forgot to turn it on, so f'ing what, irons are up.

 

Just my 2 cents. You can run your gun however works best for you, but I believe having one scheme of movement for mounting the stock is more robust, and every rep that ingrains that movement is time well spent.

[tony71 0]

? Why have the RD in the first place if you choose to use the iron? Again, cowitness does not mean the ability to look at the rd and the iron at the same time. It is the ability to use iron when the rd goes down hard. You can have absolute cowitness (haven't seen on any ak platform yet) or 1/3 cowitness wihic is most common cowitness with ak with rd set up with lowest mount.

[Parf 19]

If your iron sights, and your red dot sight are both zeroed for the same range, they will line up, or co-witness when you look through the irons. Absolute co-witness means the sights overlap in the center of the red dot tube. lower 1/3 co-witness has them lining up at the bottom of the red dot tube. Absolute happens a lot on AR's, but I've never seen a setup for AK's.

 

I'm not saying that you have to always use both sights at the same time.

 

I am saying that if you look through your iron sights with the red dot on, your dot should be on the front sight post. If they don't, something isn't sighted in properly.

Edited November 5, 2011 by Parf

[tony71 0]

I see what you mean. Could not. Agree more.

[hutchsaiga 93]

Just a piece of my thoughts here. But cowitnessing has never appealed to me. For the simple reason if yOur RDS goes down. I mean down,down(broken lens from being dropped,caked with mud or snow etc.) your irons are useless again until you remove said RDS. Generally with tools taking a great amount of time and concentration. If my RDS mounted on bp02 failed(cracked,obstructed etc) I just flip a lever and it's gone. When the lenses are cleared if it's only obstucted. Throw it back on and zero is maintained. Just my $.02 on cowitnessing.

 

ETA: if a quick release mount is used from the red dot to the rail that changes everything. But I do not know of any QD mounts that still sit low enough to cowitness with AK irons.

Edited November 6, 2011 by hutchsaiga

[Parf 19]

The only QD mount I have read about (not seen) that allows co-witness is a A.R.M.S.® #31™ Aimpoint Micro Mount on an Ultimak.

 

 

Throw lever mounts are really the way to go for almost everything, and you make a great point with that muddy sight example. On the flip side, there is no way to verify that your RDS mounted to that bp02 is still zeroed without shooting it. I'm not knocking the mount, as it is great and very repeatable, but scopes of all varieties loose zero at times. With the co-witness setup you just make sure your irons and dot line up. You get to trust AND verify.

 

All another reason I think RSRegulates co-witnessing mounts are going to be the bomb. You get the best of both worlds.

[havok 21]

US palm makes a co witness.

 

 

US Palm and Midwest Industries combined forces to create a perfect lower 1/3 co-witness option for a number of optics coveted by AK users. The AK Tri-Rail (AKTR) is available as a full kit or a stand alone top cover if you already own MI's outstanding AK rail.

 

Installation of this rail is quick and does not require a trip to the gunsmith. Easy to follow instructions and all of the necessary hardware to mount this rail system are included. Since the AKTR doesn't mount directly to the gas tube, your optic is spared exposure to a large amount of heat, thus extended the life of your optic.

 

The US Palm/MI AKTR is available as a full kit for $124.99 or as the stand alone top cover optic mount for $49.99. Full kit includes clamp, center mount, and all hardware.

 

Available for:

Trijicon RMR

Aimpoint T1/H1

Vortex Sparc (same model as T1, does not co-witness)

Burris Fast Fire

Leupold Delta Point

Insight MRDS (does not co-witness)

Aimpoint Comp M2

[thumbs1 1]

Thanks guys. No as of now the rifle is not sighted in. I just got a TWS dog leg mount installed. I put a Bushnell TRS-25 on the rail. Now that I read your replies I think it's because the irons are not sighted in. I had to move the post to the right when I was using the stock sights. This means the rd being to the left of the iron post very well may make sense. Anyway when I get a chance to shoot er I'll know better.

 

Like I said I know little about this co witness stuff. The only reason I could think of where it would be real nice is if the battery died.

 

I called TWS before I ordered the mount and they said the Bushnell TRS-25 was one of the ones they used and will co witness. I think the other one they tested was the Aimpoint. I don't know what model.

Edited November 6, 2011 by thumbs1

[tony71 0]

I have the ARMS QD mounts with aimpoint t1 on TWS and gives me 1/4 cowitness. Yeah, cowitness without QD would not be optimal in many instances. On the other hand many of the factory mounts tend to be lower than QD mounts out there Yup don't have to deal with 1/4 co witness which kinda sucks but still servicable

[Parf 19]

Does the TWS sit higher or lower than the Ultimak?

[VladTepes 160]

I have thrown my Saiga in snow and all that.. and use the gun in a hard manner.. I have never had my Aimpoint fail.. period..

 

for the glass to "crack" you would have to be doing something pretty ridiculous..

 

further.. when I move my cheek weld.. the dot is in the same space.. most higher end optics are "parallax free" some will say that no optics are truly parallax free.. aimpoint red dot is pretty close to being totally parallax free.. you would have to really look at the optic at some insane angle to experience any parallax..

 

the dot of my aimpoint is fairly close to the irons.. the system works.. I could use one or the other in real time without doing anything.. every now and then I will throw some really far shots out there just for fun.. and to do that I shut off the aimpoint and use the irons..

 

but for 100 yards and in.. the aimpoint on an ultimak is VERY fast.. and reliable..

[tony71 0]

I've hear that TWS sits bit higher than ultimak

[Parf 19]

I have the ARMS QD mounts with aimpoint t1 on TWS and gives me 1/4 cowitness. Yeah, cowitness without QD would not be optimal in many instances. On the other hand many of the factory mounts tend to be lower than QD mounts out there Yup don't have to deal with 1/4 co witness which kinda sucks but still servicable

 

Would you recommend the ARMS QD mount for the T1? Good quality, stays zeroed when removed? I guess the most important part would be staying zeroed while mounted.

[tony71 0]

Hands down Parf. I like them it stays zeroed and when taken off and put back on. I have a acog with arms QD low mount on TWS with same result. I could not say same thing about experience i had with LaRue mount on TWS. I like arms#31 mount so much that I am getting another set up. Again, only down turn is that it is bit higher than the standard mount.

[Zambidis 90]

or the glass to "crack" you would have to be doing something pretty ridiculous..

 

This video a gives a pretty good indication of the abuse a T1 can take and remain functional.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89HEefl1KI4

[VladTepes 160]

or the glass to "crack" you would have to be doing something pretty ridiculous..

 

This video a gives a pretty good indication of the abuse a T1 can take and remain functional.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89HEefl1KI4

 

 

thanks for the video.. can't watch it at the moment but pretty sure it is like others I have seen.. and as I stated... I beat the shit out of my gun.. and it keeps on ticking.. with the optic..

[Zambidis 90]

Yeah it is supposed to be a promo for the rifle. However, the aimpoint impresses me the most.

[hutchsaiga 93]

Thanks for the video.

 

All I am saying is that your irons will always be less fragile than the glass of your optic. And it would be much easier to just remove the optic in one swipe than try too sight through a tainted optic or remove your screws.

 

I feel also what your saying applies more to the people who can afford a very high quality optic like the aimpoint. I myself do not want to co witness with my trs 25.