Missile Shooter 41 Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 I just received a new Saiga .223 with a 20 inch barrel and I am planning on conversion using a CSS kit (#10 I think). My question is do i want the conversion kits with the grip nut or the trigger guard mount? Does one work better for a certain build rifle vs another? Do I need to be looking at the gun to see which one will work? Which one is better and why? I plan on using a Renegade Buck adapter amd using AR mags and a few SGM Saiga mags. I looked around the forums, but didn't find any real info about which or why. New to Saiga so I just want to get the right stuff first time out. Thanks.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
liberty -r- death 1,445 Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 I have used the CNC machine trigger guard with the grip threads built in, and the stanard trigger with seperate grip nut. I like the CNC machine trigger guard better because it looks nicer on the finished gun, but they both work just fine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wpflgun 3 Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 Missile Shooter, is that a Pershing II in your pic? The standard AK configuration uses the grip nut, not the built-in one for the trigger guard, which is what I used. Most Saiga .223 receivers already have the cut-out in the bottom of the receiver beneath the external trigger guard plate you will remove (as well as the cutout for the standard AK trigger). I Used the leftover Saiga stock trigger guard re-purposed. There are instructions online. This link was very helpful to me (steps 1-11): http://www.cross-conn.com/Saiga_Conversion/Step_1.htm I also installed the Renegadebuck AR mag adapter and am very pleased with it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Missile Shooter 41 Posted February 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 Missile Shooter, is that a Pershing II in your pic? Yes it is. I started in Pershing in 1972 in the military. Worked my way through the system finally becoming one of the lead engineers at the contractor. Actually I'm the guy who turned out the lights on the program. 20 years on Pershing total. Miss the old days of blowing things up for a living Thanks for the link too. I bookmarked it for when I start the conversion. My kit went out of stock today so I guess I'll wait (almost ordered it last night dangit). Plus I'm waiting on RenegadeBuck to email me back too. Patience is a virtue to who? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wpflgun 3 Posted February 12, 2012 Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 I worked for the prime contractor for 13 years, spent my first 3 years on the Pershing program (1983-86). Are you still in the area? Renegadebuck is a good guy, he will get back with you. The adapter is pretty straight forward and works very well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Missile Shooter 41 Posted February 12, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2012 Yeah I still live less than 2 miles from the old "Main Plant". I worked for them for 15 years and my wife worked for them for 18 years, Haven't strayed too far. Wife is theme park addict so I'll never go very far Renegade Buck already responded and said he had a few left. i sent him the money order this morning. The advanyage of living near the airport post office. open 7 days a week and almost 24 hours a day. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wpflgun 3 Posted February 13, 2012 Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) I stayed in the area as well (Winter Park), although I spent a few years away. Here is my work in progress. It is currently sporting the pistol grip and handguard from a composite stock I picked up in trade recently (unknow US made), a spare Bulgarian AK gas tube, and hanguard retainer. Renegadebuck magwell adapter is installed, and it still has an old Tapco T-6 buttstock (minus pistol grip) until I get a proper folding skeletal buttstock (Ace/Tromix/Red Jacket, etc) for it. You might want to consider getting an alternate pistol grip for your kit. I have one of the Tapco SAW type grips, works fine, just don't like it. I suggest the Hogue overmolded grip. Edited February 13, 2012 by wpflgun Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Missile Shooter 41 Posted February 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2012 Looking good. I've been thinking about doing a kit upgrade and putting the ATI Scorpion on it. I have Hogue grips on several of my pistols and love em, just wanting to try something new. I hate buying things i can't see or feel. They need a review section on CSS so you can at least get an idea about an item. I ordered a scope mount from Classic Arms for it and thinking about a BSA "Sweet 223" scope for range paper and maybe a 2X red dot for plinking. I like your classic AK style forearm hardware. It'll be a while before i am ready for that. I just got done cleaning my Saiga and an SKS. Still got to do a Mosin and a couple of pistols from the range. Back to work Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Missile Shooter 41 Posted February 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 Well I started the conversion today. I got a RenegadeBuck adapter and installed it over the weekend. Did the grinding this morning. I've tried 4 types of mags and they all drop clear and all cycle 4 snap caps perfectly without a bullet guide. Makes the Saiga one sweet little handy shooter. I would have ordered my conversion kit but they are out of stock. Just my luck. Knowing me I'll buy another gun instead if they don't come back soon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bchance 0 Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 How hard was it to install the adapter? I've heard that it is hard and I've heard that it isn't. I've been thinking of installing the adapter as well. Not sure if i'm up to it though. I just completed my first saga conversion. It turned out well and I thought it was easy, for some reason the adapter insertion scares me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Missile Shooter 41 Posted February 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) It is scary when you start grinding on the trunnion, but once you start it it seems to get easy. You just go slow. Keep dremel touch straight, square and light and it really isn't bad. Just check the fit often and keep both sides even as you go. Renegade Buck has said some require a lot of removal, some do not need any. Mine required about half of the thickness removed.Just kept removing material from the underside until the AR mag comes up enough. These 2 places and the back of the Saiga mag catch paddle are the only places I had to grind. You just need to remove enough from the paddle back to allow the paddle to move enough to release because the adapter mag release lever is to close to the paddle arm. Not much at all. trunnion before: Underside as grinding finished: Fit after complete: The main concern is to raise the AR mag up so its follower is the same level as the Saiga mag follower is when it's installed. It really does work pretty good. Edited February 22, 2012 by Missile Shooter 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wpflgun 3 Posted February 22, 2012 Report Share Posted February 22, 2012 (edited) Glad to see you got your adapter installed. I took mine out Monday to test a bunch of mags I got recently, a mix of used aluminum milspec LE, milspec new, TAPCO composite, and a couple of new steel Korean mags. 100% success with all, no FTF or FTE, just fun shooting Also used my Galils, a mix of issued/unaltered and previously altered before removing the trunnion material for the Renegadebuck adapter (IMI steel and TAPCO Galil/Golani), also 100% I was impressed with the Korean steel AR mags, which I got from Centerfire Systems. They are strong and stout, feed really well, gonna get more.I like having steel mags as my "go to" mags. If you get the Koreans, they are slightly out of spec and require a few minutes of grinding or filing at the top front edges and front sides, and have a few sharp edges at the opening at the top, which are easily fixed by a minute of sanding, filing, or grinding. New, all steel, for $9.99, well worth the time to tweek. Edited February 22, 2012 by wpflgun Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Missile Shooter 41 Posted February 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 Thanks for the info. I'll probably order a couple. American Army-Navy has good used 30 rounders for $14, and Al's Army-Navy has some well used beat up 30s for $14.99. worth a few minutes for some good steel mags. I'm partial to them too because that's all we had in the early 70s, but they were only 20 rounds. I tend to like 20s for the range. 30s seem to make me chew up ammo faster Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wpflgun 3 Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 You might want to try some of the 20 round Thermold AR mags for the range. Centerfire Systems has them for $3.99 each right now. I might pick up a few myself. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Missile Shooter 41 Posted February 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 Thanks for the heads up. I just ordered a half dozen for range use. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Missile Shooter 41 Posted February 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 Well I just got back from shooting the 223 with the Renegade Buck Mag adapter. It fired 300 rounds without a failure of any kind. Fired with my old VN 20 rounders, a couple of surplus 30 rounders, and a couple of poly 30 rounders. All locked in fine, dropped clear fine, and fired perfect, slow or rapid. Fired 3 magazines full from the original Saiga mag with no problems. I think this adapter can't be beat. Easy to install, easy to remove, and works like it's supposed to. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Missile Shooter 41 Posted March 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 I got the Thermold AR mags in and none of them would work. They were throwing rounds straight up and wouldn't even let you seat a mag most of the time without kicking out a round into the well. They even did it in my AR so I knew it wasn't the mag adapter. All 6 were the same. While messing with them I noticed the pressure was higher in the front of the round than the rear causing them to bounce up when stripped out. I took them apart and reversed the follower and slid the bottom tab around another half turn on the spring and put them back together. That did it. That mag worked perfectly so I reversed the other 5 and now they all work perfectly in the Saiga/adapter and 2 AR's. I haven't shot them, but they do chamber snap caps at full spring and slow release just fine so I don't see any issues to come. I just want the search engine to find this in case anybody else is having issues with new mags. They came assembled wrong. At $3.99 each I guess I can't expect a whole lot, but at least they work fine now. I only intend to use these for range use so I don't need a top of the line type. I guess we'll have to see how long they hold up. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SgtRaven 531 Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) Thanks for updates and nice pictures. Glad it works well. I chickened out of dremmeling trunion first, so notched out 1 PMAG for proof of concept, to start with. Never had FTF in mine. Mike is a great guy and getting busier than ever with his adapters. Good word spreads around. Speaking of Pershing: on my side of the Iron Curtain and while in Airborne Recon/LRS, I was trained to aim for control box, once "cigar: is spotted up in "ready" position. I don't know if 5.45 would do enough damage to get it off course, or failed to launch, but I guess, better than watch it gone. Glad never had to... Edited March 7, 2012 by Sgt. Raven Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Missile Shooter 41 Posted March 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Control box would have not done you any good. Once the "cigar" is upright the launch command has already been sent and launch sequence is automated. Wouldn't stand up until launch was sent. Don't want to be seen too soon Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SgtRaven 531 Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Control box would have not done you any good. Once the "cigar" is upright the launch command has already been sent and launch sequence is automated. Wouldn't stand up until launch was sent. Don't want to be seen too soon Oops: wrong terminology, sorry. Meant to say "Guidance and control" unit (XM92?); just below the warheard. I was always wondering what if trembling hands at the moment of excitement sent few rounds a little "too high"? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Missile Shooter 41 Posted March 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Now that might have worked, but you would have only had about 5 seconds. Erection start (Insert Viagra joke here) until motor ignition was only average of 12 seconds. That launcher could move a lot of weight. Warhead would have been totally safe to take a shot. No power or arming until it was in space. Most of the computers were right below the warhead at the top of the Guidance and Control Section.. It was a marvelous system.Very reliable and "fun to shoot". Only $1.3 million a round and $1.6 million for range time. Talk about expensive ammo. They brag about a 50 cal. Hell I could hit a bucket at 1200 miles + (a whole lot of classified miles). Ah,,,,,,the good old days Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wpflgun 3 Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 I got the Thermold AR mags in and none of them would work. They were throwing rounds straight up and wouldn't even let you seat a mag most of the time without kicking out a round into the well. They even did it in my AR so I knew it wasn't the mag adapter. All 6 were the same. While messing with them I noticed the pressure was higher in the front of the round than the rear causing them to bounce up when stripped out. I took them apart and reversed the follower and slid the bottom tab around another half turn on the spring and put them back together. That did it. That mag worked perfectly so I reversed the other 5 and now they all work perfectly in the Saiga/adapter and 2 AR's. I haven't shot them, but they do chamber snap caps at full spring and slow release just fine so I don't see any issues to come. I just want the search engine to find this in case anybody else is having issues with new mags. They came assembled wrong. At $3.99 each I guess I can't expect a whole lot, but at least they work fine now. I only intend to use these for range use so I don't need a top of the line type. I guess we'll have to see how long they hold up. Interesting. I reversed the spring on the follower of a steel Galil mag that just would not function reliably, and it solved the problem. Makes you wonder how many trouble mags might be caused by this. I had not ordered any yet, but probably will still try some, for the range. Regarding the PII, I was told you could launch one from Orlando and hit the hot dog stand outside the Pentagon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Missile Shooter 41 Posted March 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Yeah the system was allowed by spec to have a maximum of 25 meters circular error which works out to about 12 feet straight line on average. Since it carried a minimum 5 kiloton warhead I'd say that counts as a direct hit Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Missile Shooter 41 Posted April 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2012 Well to res the dead. I went and ordered a whole rebuild of the Saiga today from CSS. I ordered the CSS Raptor Kit, http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-1377/Carolina-Raptor-Stock-Saiga/Detail. Upgraded the pistol grip to the UPG47. Added the cheek pad for it, the power hammer spring upgrade, and finally the CSS AR style vented forearm. http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-1368/Saiga-rifle-forearm-Ar/Detail They have already shipped so I know what I am doing this weekend. after all I spent enough today so i have to hide for a couple of weeks anyway. If she doesn't miss me and come looking for me then I'm good 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jaba1017 71 Posted April 18, 2012 Report Share Posted April 18, 2012 I believe all the .223 are pre cut for a pistol grip screw nut. The trigger guard screw nut is really for the .308 which isn't pre-cut. And I'm not sure the S12's are pre-cut either. I wouldn't mess with a kit. For less money than a kit I was able to order an US made Arsenal pistol grip, an imported surplus grip screw and nut, a G2 trigger, a retaining hook, and a round screw in trigger guard. Which I wouldn't have needed the trigger guard but for dorking up the stock guard trying to remove it. My total cost for conversion parts including shipping was about $100. I got everything from KVAR except for the trigger guard which came from CSS. I also got 6 US made replacement base plates for $20 for the mags so wouldn't have to replace the foregrip and could still be compliant with foreign mags and buttstock. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Missile Shooter 41 Posted April 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 Well Here's the finished project. Conversion went really well. It felt bad to start cutting the tang off for the receiver block, but once that cutting wheel made contact i was good to go. Wouldn't hesitate again. I'll probably add a muzzle brake later. If I find one I like. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dad2142Dad 6,559 Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 (edited) Nice job, I put the demon break on mine. Edited April 20, 2012 by Dad2142Dad Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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