Arsenal raised rivet installation?

[Agent Lemon 157]

So as we all know, the Arsenal FCGs require for a raised rivet to be installed bellow the disconnector to stop trigger slap.

 

How does one install such a rivet? I was told that I would have to fabricate a custom jig for this. I have a press, but I have no idea how I would squish this rivet without ruining the drum head.

 

This rivet has a drum shaped head, and a picture of it along with measurements are attached to this post.

 

So since I've no riveting jigs or anything, I have simply put a nut with some washers on my bolt-on trigger guard bellow the disconnector on my Arsenal FCG. Of course, this acted like the rivet and stopped trigger slap, but after a few thousand rounds I noticed that the nut has a little dent from the disconnector. I think that after a while the thing will get dented to the point where trigger slap will slowly return.

 

Anyone know how one would go about squishing the head on this rivet while preserving the drum shape?

 

So far I have ghetto rigged it by shortening the shaft, drilling a dimple into it, then flaring out the end. No idea how long this will hold, if at all.

 

P.S. in the wild (armies) this rivet goes through the receiver, trigger guard, and also a receiver reinforcement plate I do believe. My build will not have a reinforcement plate, so a millimeter or two can be removed from the shaft length.

 

pps the picture shows my temporary install of the rivet, and also the dented nut that i used to copy the raised head of the rivet.

Edited June 30, 2012 by Agent Lemon

[thebuns1 4,323]

i know what your sayin. i have no clue on how to replicate this rivet. i seen a while back the exact rivet you speak of for sale a while back. and as far as ive seen, this rivet is also installed in all the de-milled AK's i have seen, and the saiga that i have here as well as my SGL. I imagine this is a military standard, but have came to the belief that one will have to come up with a jig of some sort to recreate this.

 

have you tried a 5 or 8 grade nut? i wonder if a regular trigger guard jig would work on one? dont know. ever fucked with a trigger guard jig yet.

[Agent Lemon 157]

Okay, maybe I rambled and was not clear.

 

I already have these rivets, they are for sale on k-var. I have 'replicated' them before with a nut and washers, but after a few thousand rounds the nut got dented by the disconnector hitting it every shot. It will eventually degrade to a point where trigger slap will return and the nuts threads will be ruined on the dented side.

 

The real rivet will not degrade, however, as this is its intended use. I want to find a way of actually riveting this rivet in place the proper way. For now, I have installed one of these rivets by shortening the shaft, drilling a deep 'dimple', and flaring it out. I don't know how long it will hold, and therefore want to actually rivet it in place properly as intended.

 

I have looked into an AK-Builder trigger guard jig, but it looks like it can only form rivets that have a regular, rounded pre-shaped rivet head. The jig would have a metal bar with a round dip in it. The pre-formed rivet head goes into this round dip. The pre-formed head goes on the outside of the receiver. At the same time, a plate or another bar is put into the inside of the receiver to squish the rivet head. This time, the pre-formed rivet head is not the regular shape, and is also on the inside of the receiver.

Edited June 30, 2012 by Agent Lemon

[thebuns1 4,323]

i see what your sayin. i misread your post the first time.

 

it will take some fabrication to come up with a jig to do a rivet such as this. but it can be done. ive seen them done here:

http://www.avtomats-....com/pro26.html

 

about 2/3 the way down the page you will see it. this guy repclicated one a few years back and didnt state how he done it. hard to say really.

Edited June 30, 2012 by Captain Hero

[Agent Lemon 157]

I've seen that page before. Gotta appreciate that attention to fine detail!

 

I was told that my best bet is doing the following:

 

Getting a piece of metal stock that will fit into the inside of the receiver, and then drilling a cylinder shaped hole into it that is the perfect size hole for the rivets drum head. This is supposed to support the rivet head and keep it from deforming. Then with this piece against the press plates and the rivet drum inside the perfect sized hole, squish the rivet shaft as usual.

 

I was wondering how exactly I would do this? I suppose I could find some bar stock the right size somewhere and drill a hole in it. But what kind of bit do I use to make a cylinder shaped hole? If I use a regular bit the hole will have a cone, which could possibly ruin the sharp edges of the rivets drum.

 

Furthermore, how do I go about 'riveting as usual'? Do I just press the rivet shaft with the ram of the hydraulic press directly? Do I press onto the rivet shaft a piece of metal stock that has a round crater drilled into it?

 

Also what kind of place would sell small quantities of metal stock in the first place? I could always buy online, but where do people usually go to find stuff like this locally?

Edited June 30, 2012 by Agent Lemon

[FunkedOut 91]

i have never had any trigger slap on the arsenal fcg's and i don't use those rivets. are you experiencing trigger slap or is this just preventative?

 

for what it's worth, I believe only 74's had this rivet and not AKMs. none of the AKM's i've demilled have had them. my S12 had it.

 

at any rate, I would just find a block of steel that fits into your receiver and is tall enough to stick out the top while in contact with the rivet head. flip the assembly over (trigger guard up) and hit the rivet with a hammer or use the press. if you want a round rivet head, use a ball nose end mill and cup the tip of a punch. then use that to place between your rivet and hammer/press. just make sure to keep downward pressure on the receiver so you don't get a gap between the original rivet head and the receiver.

Edited June 30, 2012 by FunkedOut

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Well, Agent Lemon, all I could offer is pictures of that rivet, but no specific guidance on the best way to install it. Of course, on the SGL21 that I reguarly fire, I've installed a Tapco G2 trigger group, so that rivet sits there unused.

[thebuns1 4,323]

i wonder if you could modify a C clamp somehow? you may have to get the hole started with a regular bit and modify the bit. maybe take off the tip with a dremel. there is a place here that sells all kinds of steel. you may be able to use a small block of aluminum too.

 

i would look in your local phone book for a steel fabricator. most places that sell steel square tubing, 2x2 angle steel, and so on, should be able to come up with a small peice of steel for you to use for this. at least i would imagine they could.

 

i have a small steel company here that sells the shit i listed above.

[Agent Lemon 157]

i have never had any trigger slap on the arsenal fcg's and i don't use those rivets.

 

You must be using a rifle that came from Arsenal, no? Their flyer specifically states that their FCGs are meant to be used with that rivet. I have to say though, I always pull the trigger to the very rear with each and every shot, then let it go forward for the trigger to reset. When I do this, I definitely feel trigger slap. Maybe I wont feel slap if I just pull the trigger until it shoots. I want absolute function though, ya know?

 

Well, Agent Lemon, all I could offer is pictures of that rivet, but no specific guidance on the best way to install it. Of course, on the SGL21 that I reguarly fire, I've installed a Tapco G2 trigger group, so that rivet sits there unused.

 

Well I already have the rivets in hand, and they are also already installed in factory Saiga rifles. They look like a regular rivet from the outside, but have the raised head inside. Also I would use the G2 but I want all 3 compliance parts, and I've absolutely no desire to spend time to get the hammer reprofiled. I want a smooth carrier movement.

 

 

I will probably go to the range today to see how my ghetto-rigged rivet installation will hold up.

 

p.s. I also have a trigger guard jig on the way. I figure that even if it wont be able to install these form the getgo, it will at least be able to hold the rifle in there and provide the rivet forming surface/dimple, after which I will only need to fabricate piece of stock to support the raised head.

Edited June 30, 2012 by Agent Lemon

[G O B 3,516]

The rivet you set should hold. To set it pretty, you have to make a buck and set. You do not need a TG jig for that one. You can make a buck and set from 1/2" bolts. Drill and dremmel a recess to match the rivet head on the end of one bolt to use as a buck. Put that securely in a vice. Drill and dremmel the end of the other bolt to make a set for the head. Have a friend hold the gun with the rivet in the buck and thru the parts, and then set the rivet with the homemade set and a 3# hammer.

[FunkedOut 91]

You must be using a rifle that came from Arsenal, no? Their flyer specifically states that their FCGs are meant to be used with that rivet. I have to say though, I always pull the trigger to the very rear with each and every shot, then let it go forward for the trigger to reset. When I do this, I definitely feel trigger slap. Maybe I wont feel slap if I just pull the trigger until it shoots. I want absolute function though, ya know?

 

not using arsenal builds. simply bought the arsenal fcg's and dropped them in non-arsenal rifles. i've read that flyer and know what you're typing about.

 

what you described above is not "trigger slap" even though it is a slap on the trigger.

what you described above is feeling when the hammer leaves the disconnector and travels about 1/4" or so and comes to rest on the sear. that impact of the hammer on the sear is what you're feeling. these big head rivets won't take that away. nothing will. you can lessen it by using a trigger with a sear that is lower and closer to the height at which the disconnector lets go of the hammer. it's not a deal though.

 

"trigger slap" is when you pull the trigger and keep it back, the round is fired cycling the action, the carrier travels rearward, cocking the hammer which causes the disconnector to rotate out of its way so much that its tail hits the trigger, causing the trigger to slap your finger. if you have no tail (a la G2, Romy G, Texas Triggers, etc.), you won't get any slap. or if you have a tail, the rivet will eliminate/prevent slap.

 

wether or not a rifle will "slap" depends on the position of the lower rails, hammer/trigger pin holes, and size/shape of the carrier, hammer and disconnector.

[Agent Lemon 157]

K so I took it to the range with my anti-slap rivet "installed", and it did not give me any trigger slap. As always I pull the trigger all the way back with every shot then let it reset. This is the best way of testing to make sure that there is no slap, but I mostly do it because I once accidentally bumped a second round with a g2 when I was new, lol. The ghetto-rigged installation stayed in there firmly and did not move or deform.

 

Also I have an S12 that slapped the SHIT outta my finger until I used some washers bellow the screw head on the CSS machined trigger guard, mimicking the anti-slap rivet. Now it does not have anyslap that I noticed. Later on when I learn how to install this rivet, the CSS trigger guard will have to be modified or replaced due to its construction.

 

Now I wait for the jig to see if I can install it like its supposed to be installed.

 

what you described above is not "trigger slap" even though it is a slap on the trigger.

what you described above is feeling when the hammer leaves the disconnector and travels about 1/4" or so and comes to rest on the sear. that impact of the hammer on the sear is what you're feeling. these big head rivets won't take that away. nothing will. you can lessen it by using a trigger with a sear that is lower and closer to the height at which the disconnector lets go of the hammer. it's not a deal though.

 

"trigger slap" is when you pull the trigger and keep it back, the round is fired cycling the action, the carrier travels rearward, cocking the hammer which causes the disconnector to rotate out of its way so much that its tail hits the trigger, causing the trigger to slap your finger. if you have no tail (a la G2, Romy G, Texas Triggers, etc.), you won't get any slap. or if you have a tail, the rivet will eliminate/prevent slap.

 

I think I either mis-wrote or maybe you mis-understood. Yes I know what the trigger feels like when I let it reset after holding it back. I was having actual trigger slap as per the reasons you described. This is why I installed nuts/washers on the INSIDE of the receiver to mimic that raised rivet. Installing the nut inside stopped the slap, but when cleaning after the range I noticed that the nut got dented a tad as per posted image in OP. This is why I want to install an actual raised rivet which is meant to take such impact in the first place.

 

I know that English is not my first or second language, but damn, is my typing really that difficult to understand? I should organize my writing better or something.

[FunkedOut 91]

Your English is fine. I misunderstood. Glad you got it sorted.

[Agent Lemon 157]

Well, that was actually easier than I thought.

 

I put a flat, square faced metal bar inside the receiver (receiver bottom facing up) to support the rivet head, then another bit of flat metal on top of the rivet tail. Then I just squished it in a press lol.

 

It worked, but the metal bar inside the receiver was not that thick, and it was hard to tell if it was touching the surface correctly. Plus I did not take into account the length of the rivet tail. The result was an ugly (lol) squished portion, and a slightly dented raised rivet head due to the bar not pressing on it equally.

 

The second and third times that I did it were correct. The rivet tail is supposed to stick out half the amount of its tail diameter. The second time that I installed this rivet I had to cut it down a bit because I was not using a reinforcement plate. The third time I did use a reinforcement plate (as is intended), and it came out beautiful. The cut-to-length one came out good too, but was not as pretty.

 

A trigger guard jig is not needed for the installation of this rear rivet itself, but they do come with a larger surface area plate that makes it easier to apply even pressure on the rivet head, which would keep it from denting due to uneven pressure as in my first attempt.

 

I installed this rivet in my S12 as well. Good thing, too, because as nice as the CSS trigger guard is, it does not allow for the use of an Arsenal S12 FCG, since you cannot even install nuts/washers on the inside of the receiver with their design.

 

Attached is a photo of one of these rivets installed in a Saiga AKM. I replaced the whole trigger guard/ mag catch with one of an AKM on it, too. Gotta love a one piece TG/mag catch. Gotta love Arsenal FCGs!

[thebuns1 4,323]

thanks for the update lemon, and the heads up. it looks good man.

[bhi curamach 2]

Depending on your particular work shop set up and how you feel about "ghetto style" implements an alternate method is to use a 1/2 inch or so brass drift/punch.

I happen to have several spares that were free to me but i believe they only cost $6-9 at a Harbor freight so no real financial loss.

 

Find a drill bit that is as close to the size of the drum rivet head and go at it, checking for head depth every so often.

Then if you've a Dremel or similar rotary tool select the round reddish stone bit. It's basically a "stone" cylinder, much like the rivet head, but , well , longer...

Use this to clean up the cone shaped hole you drilled into the brass drift/punch.

The idea is to square up the bottom of the hole so the rivet sits flush on a flat surface.

your creating a negative of the rivet head inside the brass drift.

Being brass, the harder steel rivet head wont deform, the brass hole will.

Worked for me.

Enjoy.

Thanks to Anget Lemon for pointing out this rivet in a much more current thread. i'd no idea it was needed.

i only chose to respond in this thread as I ran across it doing research for this rivet and when I saw lemons name, well, two birds, one stone, cheeers,.