Newbie/First firing - questions and observations.

[nukeme70 7]

Howdy all!

First off, I'd like to throw out compliments to this site for being THE go-to place for Saiga information. Also would like to apologize for the length of this post...

 

I received my S-12 a couple months ago (right before all the crazy happened), and have been adding accessories since then. My timing has been spot on - I got my MD-20 the night before EVERYONE was sold out, got my conversion kit from CSS before they were all gone, etc.

 

Anyway, I haven't actually done the conversion yet, so the gun is effectively still stock (except for the exact amount of US made parts to allow me to use the drum). I finally got the chance to run some ammo downrange today and wanted to share some of my impressions and see if they match up with ya'lls and also throw out some questions that I haven't seen answered.

 

I started off running each of my 5-round magazines (1 stock Saiga, 3 from KeepShooting.com), followed by the MD-20. These were all loaded with PMC High Velocity 00 Buck. The magazines all fired flawlessly. The drum had a couple stove-pipes in the first 4-5 rounds, then the rest of the drum ran fine. From this, I gather that I need to polish/adjust the feed ramp, or maybe loosen the spring a bit on the drum.

 

Next, I loaded up the magazines with Wally World Winchester bird-shot to see if that cycled fine. No luck with the first magazine (consistent FTE), so I dialed the regulator to 2 and tried a second magazine. Same issue on every round. Next, I ran the regulator out one full turn - still on 2 but out 1 thread. Same issue. I have all 4 gas ports open (stuck a dental pick through each), though I'm not sure of the diameter, and don't really want to pull the gas tube. From this I gather that a polish of the bolt is in order.

 

Some general questions/observations.

Does this gun always shoot this dirty? I was surprised at just how much crud was present in the gas tube and the barrel when I cleaned it. I had to use the cleaning rod to push out the gas puck because it wasn't moving on it's own. I don't know if this is just how it is, or if the ammo I used was just very dirty. I'm wondering if the dirt might be part of the reason the low brass didn't cycle.

 

Would it be a fair assumption that any place showing bare metal from wear would be a good candidate for minor polishing/smoothing?

 

The exhaust port on the left side of the gas block exits inside the stock hand grip. If I went with a smaller grip that left the port exposed, do I run the risk of having a geyser of hot gasses toasting my hand?

 

When I was cleaning things, I noticed a bunch of scoring marks circling around the gas regulator. At first I thought the were just a continuation of the threads that had been sanded down almost smooth, but they were just score marks. I don't remember seeing them there before first shot, but I wasn't really looking either. Is this normal, and if so, at what point (if any) should I get concerned that they might be affecting performance?

 

Thank you all in advance!

 

 

[sapper1371usmc 107]

Polishing is great but it's unlikely to fix an under gassed gun unless your just on the verge of cycling 100%. You need to pull the block and enlarge the ports to at least .073".

[LoudBoomBoom 26]

As a recent enrollee in the School of Saiga, and until such time as more learned posts come your way, these are some of the things I will share with you. Because the design of this firearm was not originally meant for either low-power loads, or very high power, it needs to be tweaked to do either of those well. The stuff in the midle of the spectrum it does very well. Although my interest in the Saiga is the exact opposite of yours, the highest power loads, the principles of operation involved are the same. Below I list what I consider the basics. You can explore the forum yourself, go down its many labyrinths, and uncover all kinds of useful information. To be sure, there is also a lot of junk there too. Use the basics as a rough guide.

 

The function of the cycling process depends on four key factors you can control to a certain degree: Amount of gas acting on the bolt carrier, mass of the moving parts, friction, and spring resistance.

 

Gas

1 - The first checkpoint for the gas is the ports in the barrel. You already checked that they are all open. Every cleaning make sure they remain so. More ports or larger ports allow more gas to enter the system. If you are satisfied that everyting else is as it should, and you still don't get satisfaction, these can be enlarged incrementally. Do be aware that they are drilled at an angle. My preference would be to not enlarge them at all until other measures have been taken. It is hard to undrill them later, and an over-gassed firearm is harder to put back to original form. My Saiga only has three ports, and that's fine for me

2 - Second checkpoint is the gas plug. The factory plug has two settings; #1 lets just a little gas into the system for the use of slugs and such, #2 allows more gas in for lesser power loads. You may want to try a plug with a setting that allows more gas in than the factory plug when set to #2. There are plugs that have multiple settings with varying amounts of gas coming in and you set what setting you want manually. There are also plugs that are supposed to be self-regulating. Exercise due diligence researching relative amount of gas flow at the most open setting and, if moving parts are involved, the overall reliability of the unit. For me, I chose a DPH 6-position plug and on setting #6 it cycles everything, other than non-lethal rubber rounds or mini-shells. This is the easiest low-priced improvement to make first.

3 - Third checkppoint is the gas puc (piston). It get the gas that flows past the gas plug and is moved rearward by that gas, pushing back on the bolt carrier. Some are lighter in weight, some are heavier, some are advertised as 'self-cleaning', etc.. The puc should fit somewhat loosely, make sure it does. A tighter puc would allow less blow-by and more forceful movement but at the risk of seizing because of heat and powder residue. Some factory powders leave very high residue levels behind, so clean up often when using those. After only 5 rounds using a particular brand of shells, my gas block was totally cruddy. With some other shells it was just sooty. Keep this one in the back of your mind for now.

4 - The final checkpoint for the gas is the vent. The spent gas is vented to the outside I don't see how, in your case, this would be a factor you could do much about

 

Mass

1 - The first moving part is the puc (as above). Some have recommended a lighter puc because it ihas less inertia to overcome. While a small difference in weight between the lightest and the heaviest puc could make the difference if you are almost there, I would try the other things first.

2 - The second moving part is the bolt carrier assembly. The puc pushes on the end of the op rod which is screwed and staked onto the front part of the bolt carrier. I am not aware of any lighter than factory op rods available, and lightening the bolt carrier may not be a good idea for safety reasons.

 

Friction

1 - Again, keeping it clean helps

2 - The biggest friction the bolt carrier encounters is, as it moves rearward, rubbing its bottom against the sprung internals. This is where profiling and polishing the bolt come in. This is what the previous post, by sapper1371usmc, refers to. Have you tried loading one round in manually without the magazine in place? The next round in the magazine is a source of friction that has to be overcome. The rails on the receiver should be smooth, the bolt should rotate freely, the hammer should rotate smoothly, etc. All mating surfaces should be properly lubed. Some say after a few hundred rounds it will break-in and this type of friction will be reduced. Only you can figure out if that's the way you want to go. Read up on the forum and get a wide range of opinion and facts, THEN make the decision.

 

Spring

1 - The rating of the recoil springs determines how hard they will resist the force of the gas. These springs are also made in a lighter-than-factory rating - what you would want for lower power shells - and Carolina Shooters Supply, a sponsor listed on the right pane of the home page, sells a 'reliability kit' that includes this. Other vendors may have similar offerings. Many others have posted on this subject.

2 - Other internal springs also resist rearward movement. Be careful, though, you don't compromise other functionality.

 

In summary, after doing the due homework, I would first do the things that require the least labor for the lowest cost and the highest potential for resolution. Then the other stuff. I would first replace the gas plug to one that flowed more gas; then test. Next, I would install a 'reliability kit'; then test again. Now, I would profile and polish the bolt, and test. Finally I would enlarge the gas ports progressively and at the right angle.

 

Of course, like I said in the beginning, I am just another new guy on the forum, giving you something to read and think about while the guys that really know their stuff wait in the wings for you to research the forum for answers that addressed similar isues in the past before jumping in.

 

Thanks, and, Welcome to the forum.

[TheJoe90 27]

Dont spend any money on parts just yet, IMHO.

 

Step one, clean any oils out of the weapon, you want it dry. (Unless you have something called Lapping Compound, used to wear in valves. I did it dry)

 

You can do all this with a file and sand paper, you dont need a dremel yet. Also, make sure to hand cycle the weapon enough times to note where your friction points are, and to know how it feels so you can tell if it is improved.

 

Clean the paint off of the rails, as well as the part of the bolt carrier that rides the rails. Get this smooth. Paint on paint is going to cause friction.

 

Next, look at the bottom of your bolt carrier. The hump that passes over the hammer to re-cok the gun? It has two angles on it. Try rounding these corners with your file, and reducing the abruptness of the slope. Also, make sure there is no paint here either. Note that you dont want to reduce the total height of this surface, because then your hammer may not re-cock. (Or you may make your weapon less than controllable and risk federal prison)

 

Now, make sure your gas puck is clean, as well as the inside of the gas tube. Sand gently if you have to, that puck should sound like a loose screw inside when you shake the weapon up and down with the bolt back. NEVER LUBE THIS AREA. While your here, scrape out the ports. 4 holes is great, make sure they are not partly obstructed. Oh, and dont clean the barrel after doing this, you might re clog the holes.

 

Make sure the chamber is clean. Dirty chamber is a no go.

 

All clean and dry? Perfect. Your going to need a beer or two for this part. Your going to sit on the couch and rack the bolt, then let it ride forward 500 times. Why? Because it will do the same "Wearing it in" thing as firing it 500 times, for the cost of a few beers! All the way back, and let it slide home.

 

I found my weapon did not like the normal gun lube I used. Instead, she likes Chain Wax. Its designed for street bike chains, and it holds better to the lube needing surfaces. If you dont like it, brake clean takes it right back off, no problem. My S12 is now the most reliable weapon I have ever owned after fallowing these simple steps.

 

Once you convert it, your new hammer will need to be re-profiled OR you will want to run the original hammer. (Beware of 922)

 

I will spell check this when I am not half asleep. Happy shooting, your millage may vary!

Edited January 28, 2013 by TheJoe90

[TO THE FLOOR IN A 63 121]

The Saiga12 is a military assualt weapon and your shooting 1200 FPS (at best) wally world low brass cheap shit in it??? Really??

 

IMHO I would say that is your first problem. The guys above make good points but break in the old fashon way is to shoot it which is more fun then drinking beers on the couch...Took me several hundred rounds on each of two or three outings before I considered it broken in enough to shoot 1300 FPS birdshot. During break in I shot buck, slugs, and steel BB's and some old 3 inch I has laying around. Anything with a high FPS. Average is about 1300 anything higher is better for break in...as I remember I used 1600 FPS.

 

Next for that stuck puck...dry clean that gas tube...oils stick the thing like cement. I use the 4 position gas fixer plug on both my s12's so don't know if backing out the 2 position plug is sufficent.

Edited January 28, 2013 by TO THE FLOOR