Terminal Performance of the 7.62x39

[LuPiN8oR 333]

Someone else might wanna chime in on the efficacy of a subsonic x39 round as im nowhere near the expert. That being said, i think the idea is to have a round that will be useful in indoor close quarter environments and not have your ears bleed lol. Ive read a little online about it, what i recall seeing is a really heavy projectile (200gr+) to cycle the action and using some sort of pistol powder. Actual load data im unsure of tho. Hope someone else has.

[gunfun 3,931]

 

While I do agree that some loads will perform better than others, I dont see this caliber being as ineffective as many may claim. I feel a well placed shot with one of the lower performing loads will offer better results than a poorly placed shot with a better performing bullet. I also feel that modern bullets will perform better than those from 40+ yrs ago. I dont want to see this thread turn into a pissing match, but bullet construction is vital to performance, regardless of caliber. And for the lack of terminal performance, I feel its a moot argument as any caliber will have its good and bad loads.

The lack of terminal performance is not a moot point if you are shooting a bad guy who's shooting at you.

 

Yes shot placement is important. It goes without saying that shot placement is important. Can we just agree to that and keep the thread focused on the original point?

 

And it is NOT a caliber vs caliber discussion. PLEASE, NO!

 

It is just me pointing out what I discovered about the x39 that others may find useful.

Well if your using shitty loads, then dont expect them to perform very good.

 

Ive seen firsthand what these rounds do to 300+lbs hogs. Its not pretty. I have no doubt of the effectiveness of the cartridge with good loads.

 

 

I think a big portion of the point is that a load that does well on something dense and thick like a 300 lb hog can be expected to perform poorly on soft thin skinned game like long pork.

 

I am curious how much testing has been done with krink length barrels and "bad" twist rates. Since that FMJ did badly due to the 'icepick' problem... perhaps reduced velocity and poor stabilization would aid tumbling. On the other hand, even a tumble prone bullet won't get much chance to be sideways in home defense ranges. Even in Western WA, you are probably still talking about distances inside 100 feet. -much has been made of needing full velocity to make 556 really do its stuff- I can't help but think an intentionally unstable 7.62 x39 at reduced velocity might be a good performer for opposite reasons.

[XD45 7,124]

I will be doing some more testing with my M92 after I get the stock on it. I can't change the twist rate obviously but I do want to know how GT performs from the short barrel. From a 16" barrel it upsets at 4" which is marginal for a 2-footed varmit. I want a round that upsets in 3" or less for my stockpile.

 

On the subject of sub-sonic loads, the driving force behind sub-sonic is elimination of the supersonic crack when using a suppressor. If the bullet is heavy enough and upsets quickly it will still be devastating at 1000fps. For AKs there is another problem with suppressors due to the gas system venting high-pressure gas. A supressed AK is still pretty loud compared to a di rifle.

[gunfun 3,931]

Yeah, for that purpose, I think the project TAKD is working on makes more sense in the Kalashnikov platform: 300BO barrel and adjustable gas block. At least the adjustable gas block even if you are set on 7.62x39.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

All I have seen is the GT loses only about 100fps out of a 12" barrel so the powder must be fairly fast burning. Same goes for the yugo mil-surp.

 

Not sure if thats enough of a drop to change TB char though since that represents the drop 30' further range would give. Math done in head so dont gripe about it.

 

Yeah I just dont see much need for a subsonic round in x39. Better tools for that job around, easy to take a 9mm carbine sub-sonic and then suppress and there is ammo and load data for it.

 

Hmmm ....

[LuPiN8oR 333]

Id love to have an adjustable gas block! I still think that there would be a big market for subsonic x39 with a bit more load development. I myself am not looking for movie silenced, but rather a way to turn it into a somewhat hearing safe indoors HD gun. That and the availability and price of 300 blk is...well you know lol.

[mostholycerebus 415]

Yeah I just dont see much need for a subsonic round in x39. Better tools for that job around, easy to take a 9mm carbine sub-sonic and then suppress and there is ammo and load data for it.

Actually, police forces are replacing their 9mm SMGs with 300BLK SBRs because the x39/300BLK ballistics are so much better thn 9mm with a modern bullet. Something like the Barnes black tip, that opens consistently even at subsonic speeds. Plus, that SBR can become an acceptable duty weapon outside a building just by switching mags to a supersonic load.

 

Unless someone really ramps up x39 modern loads, 300BLK is gonna eat its lunch. Yes, ammo is expensive, but it uses 5.56 casing and .308 bullets: both of which MANY companies already have production capability for. All they need to do is get both together. Seems like switching current capacity to a dry market where $2/bullet is the norm would be a pretty good business decision. Probably why Remington is publically supporting 300BLK so much.

Edited August 22, 2013 by mostholycerebus

[XD45 7,124]

Yeah there is no reason for taking x39 sub-sonic when the 300blk has so many built in advantages.

 

Sub-sonic x39 will always be either a novelty or a specialty round for situations where you don't want to leave US brass laying around.

 

I would love to see some 150gr premium hunting loads for the x39.

[dashowdy 141]

Never was clear on the purpose of slowing a rifle round down to @1100fps, would seem to lose all purpose.

 

If the "crack" is a major component of the noise as it is with a 22LR or a 9mm pistol that would make sense to eliminate it.

 

Interesting idea though, ever seen load data on such a round?

they load 180 gr. and 220 gr. in russian military for suppressors, it is only good to 125 yards or so but because of the b/c it is a devastating round for a supressed rifle with no sound.

[LuPiN8oR 333]

 

Never was clear on the purpose of slowing a rifle round down to @1100fps, would seem to lose all purpose.

 

If the "crack" is a major component of the noise as it is with a 22LR or a 9mm pistol that would make sense to eliminate it.

 

Interesting idea though, ever seen load data on such a round?

they load 180 gr. and 220 gr. in russian military for suppressors, it is only good to 125 yards or so but because of the b/c it is a devastating round for a supressed rifle with no sound.

^this. With as many people already set up to run x39, it would seem to me a viable option to either get it imported or re create it state side.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

 

 

Never was clear on the purpose of slowing a rifle round down to @1100fps, would seem to lose all purpose.

 

If the "crack" is a major component of the noise as it is with a 22LR or a 9mm pistol that would make sense to eliminate it.

 

Interesting idea though, ever seen load data on such a round?

they load 180 gr. and 220 gr. in russian military for suppressors, it is only good to 125 yards or so but because of the b/c it is a devastating round for a supressed rifle with no sound.

^this. With as many people already set up to run x39, it would seem to me a viable option to either get it imported or re create it state side.

 

 

Still seems like forcing the round peg into a square hole but Im sure it works well enough.

I dont buy the TB are better than say a 40SW which would be similar mass and velocity or a 9mm +p round, either suppress much easier than the AK.

Both have far more research in SD rounds and availability.

 

That said it would be fun to mess around with but I am easily amused.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

New youtube vid on Zombie Max and Tula HP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-tzEvw8hvc&feature=c4-overview&list=UULdS-UX6V4aEtvdTc806AfA

 

About what we would expect, the American ammo did as advertised with a higher cost, the Tula is just FMJ with a hole in it.

[LuPiN8oR 333]

Tula 122gr hp is not good Rhodes. However the 124gr hp now has what used to be the 8m3 bullet (that used to be in wolf mc 124gr hp)or extremely similar with the pre-fail cuts in it. Ive tested it and it works. At least all the tula 124g is that ive found. The 122gr is crap.

 

E.t.a i am pretty convinced however that you should check what you get tho because the ruskies are infamous for switching things around with no heads up. Either they changed it again recently or thats an older box. No way to tell but to test what ya get.

Edited August 23, 2013 by LuPiN8oR

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

For consistency of TB think I will stick to GT and yugo-milsurp FMJ and Remington PSPs.

The Hornady stuff looks interesting but see no real gain over Rem.

 

My main problem is what to do when the yugo is gone.

[JoeAK 337]

I thought yugo WAS gone, though I haven't looked for a while. I hear Golden Tiger is supposed to perform similarly.

[Lone Eagle 839]

I would love to see some 150gr premium hunting loads for the x39.

 

BVAC does them.

 

Google "Selway Armory", then look for BVAC 150gr x39 loads.

[XD45 7,124]

For consistency of TB think I will stick to GT and yugo-milsurp FMJ and Remington PSPs.

The Hornady stuff looks interesting but see no real gain over Rem.

You don't see 0.65 a round vs 1.30 a round as a real gain?

 

 

 

I would love to see some 150gr premium hunting loads for the x39.

 

BVAC does them.

 

Google "Selway Armory", then look for BVAC 150gr x39 loads.

 

Thanks for the heads up.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Darth Saigus

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

 

For consistency of TB think I will stick to GT and yugo-milsurp FMJ and Remington PSPs.

The Hornady stuff looks interesting but see no real gain over Rem.

You don't see 0.65 a round vs 1.30 a round as a real gain?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Already have the Remington

Hopefully more than I will ever use as this is not a "hunting" round for me at least.

 

Well not at present if I still tromped through brush looking for hawgs then it might be different.

[Sirex 34]

Generally, in my Saiga and SKS my defensive rounds are Yugo M67, ammo with 8m3 bullets or softpoints. I have some steel core Chinese, but would probably only try that if someone had some body armor on. Also have some Golden Tiger if needed, but use that for sighting in a rifle since it shoots pretty well in everything I run it thru. The Wolf, Tula, Bear FMJ is just range ammo for mine. If anyone is looking for it, these folks have some 8m3 HP 7.62x39;

http://www.quietriotfirearms.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=U762

 

Not a bad price, and I checked the nose and the hole IS larger and seems to have the cuts.

 

FWIW, my uncle, a Sgt in the US Army during Vietnam, carried an AK. He both shot an AK, and got shot by one. He would not recommend getting shot by any of it.

[XD45 7,124]

FWIW, my uncle, a Sgt in the US Army during Vietnam, carried an AK. He both shot an AK, and got shot by one. He would not recommend getting shot by any of it.

 

I wouldn't recommend getting shot by a 25acp, and people have been killed by that cartridge, but that wouldn't be my choice for self defense or hunting.

 

The purpose of this discussion is to objectively and realistically look at the performance of different 7.62x39 loads. The fact that your uncle is still around to not recommend being shot by an AK tells me that he survived being shot by an AK. That doesn't prove that the round is ineffective but it doesn't prove that it's effective either.

 

My uncle was shot by a 7.7mm Japanese at Quadalcanal. He didn't recommend being shot by one. The 7.7mm is unquestionably more powerful than the x39 so what does this prove? It proves that fmj bullets don't always kill, even from powerful rifle cartridges.

 

I started this thread to shine some light on the truths and myths of the x39. As compelling as stories may be, they're just stories. I'll put my trust in hard data.

[Sirex 34]

 

FWIW, my uncle, a Sgt in the US Army during Vietnam, carried an AK. He both shot an AK, and got shot by one. He would not recommend getting shot by any of it.

 

I wouldn't recommend getting shot by a 25acp, and people have been killed by that cartridge, but that wouldn't be my choice for self defense or hunting.

 

The purpose of this discussion is to objectively and realistically look at the performance of different 7.62x39 loads. The fact that your uncle is still around to not recommend being shot by an AK tells me that he survived being shot by an AK. That doesn't prove that the round is ineffective but it doesn't prove that it's effective either.

 

My uncle was shot by a 7.7mm Japanese at Quadalcanal. He didn't recommend being shot by one. The 7.7mm is unquestionably more powerful than the x39 so what does this prove? It proves that fmj bullets don't always kill, even from powerful rifle cartridges.

 

I started this thread to shine some light on the truths and myths of the x39. As compelling as stories may be, they're just stories. I'll put my trust in hard data.

 

LOL, I'm not debating you. It may not be the optimal round. Just sharing some of the defensive 7.62x39 loads I keep on hand, and a short anecdotal story. Relax.

[JoeAK 337]

No tests yet, but I figured a few would be interested to know I just got some Herter's 122gr. HP loaded with 8m3 at Cabela's, headstamp says Tulammo.

[LuPiN8oR 333]

Hmmm... all 8m3 was 124gr that ive ever heard of...

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Hmmm... all 8m3 was 124gr that ive ever heard of...

 

Ditto

[JoeAK 337]

It's definitely got the cuts inside the HP, personally, I wouldn't really trust the grain measure on the box.

[SGL 530]

Just a heads up that seems relevant to the conversation and hopefully helpful... Hornady SST in 7.62x39 is in stock with no limits at Sportsman's Guide.

 

(at the time of this post anyway)

[XD45 7,124]

No tests yet, but I figured a few would be interested to know I just got some Herter's 122gr. HP loaded with 8m3 at Cabela's, headstamp says Tulammo.

 

 

Hmmm... all 8m3 was 124gr that ive ever heard of...

 

Somehow I don't think the Russians get too worked up over things like the bullet weight being 2 grains off on the box.

 

I hope it's 8m3. That's a good score.

Just a heads up that seems relevant to the conversation and hopefully helpful... Hornady SST in 7.62x39 is in stock with no limits at Sportsman's Guide.

 

(at the time of this post anyway)

 

And the price isn't bad.

[SGL 530]

 

Just a heads up that seems relevant to the conversation and hopefully helpful... Hornady SST in 7.62x39 is in stock with no limits at Sportsman's Guide.

 

(at the time of this post anyway)

 

And the price isn't bad.

 

 

Even better with Free Shipping over $50.00 - Promo Code SH559

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Well we know Russian ammo has variances so perhaps some 8m3 was processed but not noted on the box.

 

But all the weights of the 8m3 I have seen only vary about .4g so you could weigh a pulled bullet and find out if its 124g.

 

I havent seen anything on 8m3 bullet to date showing any real superiority over the M67, yugo mil-surp, or Golden Tiger. Rarely does the HP bullet expand but it does tumble similar to the M67 and GT. Unless you go to high end American ammo its all yaw from what I can see.

 

And thats about all I could find on it.

[JoeAK 337]

Are you sure you saw tests for the 8m3 HP, or the usual crap, the usual crap does act like an FMJ, the 8m3 fragments.

 

 

Here's a few tests I did on the first box I found, this was labeled as Tulammo 122gr. HP

 

The top left round was shot into some clayish stuff that my friend uses to test bullets, it's barely being held together, and it left a relatively big and nasty cavity, about the same size as the cavity from a .303 brit SP.

 

Bottom left was shot into water, these are the only pieces that I found, and could definitivly ID.

 

The round on the right was also shot into water, didn't find the lead core.

 

The bottom bullet, I pulled weighed and sectioned, melted the lead out of one half so I could see the cuts, they extend a little more than halfway down the bullet. I don't remember the exact weight, but it was 123.something.