goldenpony 61 Posted March 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 This just occurred to me. I installed a CCS Performance Puck and a TAC-47 Autoplug. If I installed an American made muzzle break, wouldn't that let me use the hi cap mags until such time I convert? I now think that sometime I will convert. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HighPlainsDrifter 466 Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 (edited) This just occurred to me. I installed a CCS Performance Puck and a TAC-47 Autoplug. If I installed an American made muzzle break, wouldn't that let me use the hi cap mags until such time I convert? I now think that sometime I will convert. Disregard the autoplug as the ATF doesn't view this as a replaceable compliant part. Spend sometime reading this page describing 922r in shotguns... http://www.thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/BuildSaigaShotgunVerifyCompliance Get to know how the checklist works. Then take some time and read this writeup if your still uncertain on why to convert... http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/39651-why-should-you-convert-your-saiga/ You are certainly not the first to experience some initial letdown with purchasing the Saiga-12. Don't worry about that though as with some confidence that soon will pass. I don't have a garage nor do I own a shit load of tools. I most certainly am not a machinist and looking back I didn't have a clue about how to convert. Do a little research, keep asking questions, and soon we'll get you where you need to be. Edited: The first link I posted was initially leading you to rifles. I fixed it but make sure when your reading the compliance checklist it's for a shotgun. Edited March 21, 2014 by HighPlainsDrifter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
goldenpony 61 Posted March 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 This just occurred to me. I installed a CCS Performance Puck and a TAC-47 Autoplug. If I installed an American made muzzle break, wouldn't that let me use the hi cap mags until such time I convert? I now think that sometime I will convert. Disregard the autoplug as the ATF doesn't view this as a replaceable compliant part. Spend sometime reading this page describing 922r in shotguns... http://www.thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/BuildSaigaShotgunVerifyCompliance Get to know how the checklist works. Then take some time and read this writeup if your still uncertain on why to convert... http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/39651-why-should-you-convert-your-saiga/ You are certainly not the first to experience some initial letdown with purchasing the Saiga-12. Don't worry about that though as with some confidence that soon will pass. I don't have a garage nor do I own a shit load of tools. I most certainly am not a machinist and looking back I didn't have a clue about how to convert. Do a little research, keep asking questions, and soon we'll get you where you need to be. Edited: The first link I posted was initially leading you to rifles. I fixed it but make sure when your reading the compliance checklist it's for a shotgun. Thanks High Plains Drifter, I appreciate your information. You are right, I am experiencing kind of buyers remorse about the Saiga. When I first got it it wouldn't cycle worth a damn. I read up on the problem. I first threw some parts at it (Auto Plug, Performance puck, etc) and finally I took it apart and found the problem was the ports in the gas block. I fixed it and put it all back together and I was thrilled with the result. One of the main reasons I wanted the higher cap mag was for bowling pin shoots. There's 5 pins on the table and if you miss one if you only have 5 rounds you're done. That's why I bought the 8 round Izy mag. Now I find out I can't use it. To be honest, I love this gun, it's a shame that it is kind of tarnished for me now. I guess I have no other choice than to eventually go ahead and convert it. I have watched a bunch of videos (the one from CSS is good) and I don't think it is anything I can't do. Right now I feel like just putting it back in the case and throwing it in the closet and kind of cool off. It's kind of like Obama Care, I'm just turned off. Thanks again. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saiga12conversions.com 13 Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 Well. If you don't want the tri rail forend or vertical foregrip. I could probably knock $75 off of the price. I will have to replace your gas piston to keep you compliant. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
goldenpony 61 Posted March 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 Well. If you don't want the tri rail forend or vertical foregrip. I could probably knock $75 off of the price. I will have to replace your gas piston to keep you compliant. I have replaced the gas piston with the CSS Performance puck Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunman1 1,753 Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 This just occurred to me. I installed a CCS Performance Puck and a TAC-47 Autoplug. If I installed an American made muzzle break, wouldn't that let me use the hi cap mags until such time I convert? I now think that sometime I will convert. Disregard the autoplug as the ATF doesn't view this as a replaceable compliant part. Spend sometime reading this page describing 922r in shotguns... http://www.thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/BuildSaigaShotgunVerifyCompliance Get to know how the checklist works. Then take some time and read this writeup if your still uncertain on why to convert... http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/39651-why-should-you-convert-your-saiga/ You are certainly not the first to experience some initial letdown with purchasing the Saiga-12. Don't worry about that though as with some confidence that soon will pass. I don't have a garage nor do I own a shit load of tools. I most certainly am not a machinist and looking back I didn't have a clue about how to convert. Do a little research, keep asking questions, and soon we'll get you where you need to be. Edited: The first link I posted was initially leading you to rifles. I fixed it but make sure when your reading the compliance checklist it's for a shotgun. Thanks High Plains Drifter, I appreciate your information. You are right, I am experiencing kind of buyers remorse about the Saiga. When I first got it it wouldn't cycle worth a damn. I read up on the problem. I first threw some parts at it (Auto Plug, Performance puck, etc) and finally I took it apart and found the problem was the ports in the gas block. I fixed it and put it all back together and I was thrilled with the result. One of the main reasons I wanted the higher cap mag was for bowling pin shoots. There's 5 pins on the table and if you miss one if you only have 5 rounds you're done. That's why I bought the 8 round Izy mag. Now I find out I can't use it. To be honest, I love this gun, it's a shame that it is kind of tarnished for me now. I guess I have no other choice than to eventually go ahead and convert it. I have watched a bunch of videos (the one from CSS is good) and I don't think it is anything I can't do. Right now I feel like just putting it back in the case and throwing it in the closet and kind of cool off. It's kind of like Obama Care, I'm just turned off. Thanks again. You can look at it as tarnished if you want to, or you can look at as a good excuse to do the work that will put gun back to how it was originally configured, as a true AK. You have no idea right now what you are missing, put one of Cobra's tuned and polished trigger sets in that baby and then you will know what the rest of us already know Dude you gotta start thinking positive about this conversion, as you will have an excellent gun afterward, and much fun doing it. I too was intimidated by it, trust me when I say it aint no big deal. Take your time and know that we are here to help you. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HighPlainsDrifter 466 Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 (edited) ^This! Don't walk away from your build. Frustration is understandable, persistence will pay off! Edited: You've already managed to open the ports so the hardest part has already been taken care of. Now we're talking about playing around with the internals and dressing it up a bit. This is where it gets fun! Edited March 21, 2014 by HighPlainsDrifter 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csspecs 1,987 Posted March 21, 2014 Report Share Posted March 21, 2014 Well. If you don't want the tri rail forend or vertical foregrip. I could probably knock $75 off of the price. I will have to replace your gas piston to keep you compliant. I have replaced the gas piston with the CSS Performance puck There is one ATF letter listing the Saiga shotgun having 15 parts, another listing it as having 13, and a bunch listing it as having 14.. The one with a count of 15 the guy writing the letter listed all the parts at 15 and asked them to confirm it. Thus he received a letter saying exactly what he asked for. The letter that stated parts count at 13 counted the trunion as part of the receiver due to the serial number being stamped into it.. The bolt carrier extension should not be counted as an operating rod as it is NOT a separate part, it is staked/resistance welded in what is considered a permanent way, and is not used as a piston. Honestly the russians could/should have made it a single piece with the carrier. (I am not a lawyer so make up your own mind) If the count is 14 then all you need to do is swap out your stock and use US made magazines. I do suggest a conversion, its really easy and makes the shotgun shoot much more naturally. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
goldenpony 61 Posted March 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 I assume there is no " work around" that would allow my to use my Izzy 8 round mag other than conversion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csspecs 1,987 Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 Maybe. If you have 14 counted parts. You can: Change the front stock Change the back stock Change the piston puck (you've done this) Changing the hammer or magazine floor plate is your next best options. This would have you at 10 parts. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HighPlainsDrifter 466 Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 Maybe. If you have 14 counted parts. You can: Change the front stock Change the back stock Change the piston puck (you've done this) Changing the hammer or magazine floor plate is your next best options. This would have you at 10 parts. ^This or... Change the hammer Change the Disconnector Buy both here... Change the puc (you already have) Change the floor plate (pm me and I'll let you know where you can find one) Probably the most cost effective way to go about it. If you stick to American made magazines (3 parts) then you don't have to do a thing other than keep in that booster puc. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
goldenpony 61 Posted March 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 (edited) HighPlainsDrifter, on 22 Mar 2014 - 12:52 AM, said: csspecs, on 22 Mar 2014 - 12:29 AM, said: Maybe. If you have 14 counted parts. You can: Change the front stock Change the back stock Change the piston puck (you've done this) Changing the hammer or magazine floor plate is your next best options. This would have you at 10 parts. ^This or... Change the hammer Change the Disconnector Buy both here... Change the puc (you already have) Change the floor plate (pm me and I'll let you know where you can find one) Probably the most cost effective way to go about it. If you stick to American made magazines (3 parts) then you don't have to do a thing other than keep in that booster puc. So, with my puck replaced, I could go ahead and use the AGP magazine until sometime in the future when I convert and then I could use the Izzy mag? Do you mean change the floorplate in the Izzy mag? Edited March 22, 2014 by goldenpony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csspecs 1,987 Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 To me it looks good. And you can still use your imported magazines that hold 5 or less, since you don't have any of the features unless you install the pistol grip.. I still suggest conversion. Its like driving the car in your profile photo vs. a Geo metro... Shameless plug: I make a pretty durable 8 round that you can get for half what a Russian 8 costs. All US made. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HighPlainsDrifter 466 Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 So, with my puck replaced, I could go ahead and use the AGP magazine until sometime in the future when I convert and then I could use the Izzy mag? Do you mean change the floorplate in the Izzy mag? You got it! Before you can use that foreign mag you have to change out 3 more parts. Shameless plug: I make a pretty durable 8 round that you can get for half what a Russian 8 costs. All US made. This guy's making a pretty good name for himself. A lot of good reviews for that mag. Buy here... http://stores.csspecs.com/saiga-12-gauge-8-round-steel-magazine/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
goldenpony 61 Posted March 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 So, with my puck replaced, I could go ahead and use the AGP magazine until sometime in the future when I convert and then I could use the Izzy mag? Do you mean change the floorplate in the Izzy mag? You got it! Before you can use that foreign mag you have to change out 3 more parts. Shameless plug: I make a pretty durable 8 round that you can get for half what a Russian 8 costs. All US made. This guy's making a pretty good name for himself. A lot of good reviews for that mag. Buy here... http://stores.csspecs.com/saiga-12-gauge-8-round-steel-magazine/ To use the Izzy mag I would need to change total of 3 parts, or 3 more parts besides the puck? I like the look of that steel mag. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HighPlainsDrifter 466 Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 To use the Izzy mag I would need to change total of 3 parts, or 3 more parts besides the puck? Three more parts besides the puck. See post #41 for the cheapest solution if you want to use the Izhmash magazine. Your total cost would be around $80 for materials. Seriously though, here we are talking about keeping it in the sporter configuration when we should be talking about converting it all together. To convert you would need to buy... hammer, disconnector, spring retaining plate or shepherd's crook trigger guard pistol grip stock Total cost would be around $150 depending on the parts you buy. You'll be essentially wasting money if you convert to pistol grip later down the road as you won't be able to use the same hammer and disconnector. They are different between the sporter and pistol grip configuration. Keep that in mind if you order from Dinzag (link in post #41). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HighPlainsDrifter 466 Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 (edited) Here's a thought. I have to (2) 12 round SGM rock-n-lock Saiga-12 mags that are new and still sealed in the packages. Their value is $45 each from Carolina Shooters Supply. I will trade you straight up for the Izzy mag. Or I have a New MD Arms 20 round drum still sealed that I will offer up for trade plus a few dollars as well. Either option and you don't have to do a thing regarding 922r. I am assuming that Izzy mag is in great condition? You can find both listed in the WTS section here... http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/92606-wts-new-aksaiga-12-parts-accessories-magazines/?p=958338 Edited March 22, 2014 by HighPlainsDrifter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunman1 1,753 Posted March 22, 2014 Report Share Posted March 22, 2014 Better yet.....send that disgusting ass Saiga shotgun to me, I'll do away with it Quote Link to post Share on other sites
goldenpony 61 Posted March 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 (edited) OK guys, you've pretty much convinced me. I am looking seriously at the CSS conversion kit #1. I've watched their video over and over and I don't see anything I can't do. As I understand it, with this kit and my CSS gas puck, I should be able to use any magazine I want, including my AGP 10 round and Izzy 8 rounder. Until such time I can talk my other half into OKing me buying the kit, I'll just use the AGP and my factory 5 round. Running into a bit of resistance here. I guess this will keep me out of jail. Thanks fellas. Edited March 23, 2014 by goldenpony 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csspecs 1,987 Posted March 23, 2014 Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 Honestly... I don't think anyone has ever been arrested for 922r violation alone. And at any gunshow you will find hundreds of firearms that are in not following it. Odds are you could just do whatever you want and be fine.. However compliance is not that hard or expensive when building out a saiga. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
goldenpony 61 Posted March 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2014 Ya' know, I have kind of been thinking the same thing. As I said, I am going to convert eventually, if for no other reason than to have a superior gun. In the mean time, if I go to the gun club to shoot bowling pins (which is the main reason I bought the Izzy for) I'm just going to use it. I'll play the odds. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted March 24, 2014 Report Share Posted March 24, 2014 Ya' know, I have kind of been thinking the same thing. As I said, I am going to convert eventually, if for no other reason than to have a superior gun. In the mean time, if I go to the gun club to shoot bowling pins (which is the main reason I bought the Izzy for) I'm just going to use it. I'll play the odds.The odds are in your favor, assuming you don't announce it publicly on the internet. JK Quote Link to post Share on other sites
goldenpony 61 Posted March 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2014 Understand. I got the message. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
goldenpony 61 Posted March 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 I might "cheap out" until I can convert. I have the US made puck (1 part). I could add the Phoenix Tech Field Series adj. stock with pistol grip (2 parts). And add a flash hider (1 part). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HighPlainsDrifter 466 Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 I might "cheap out" until I can convert. I have the US made puck (1 part). I could add the Phoenix Tech Field Series adj. stock with pistol grip (2 parts). And add a flash hider (1 part). 1 part for replacing puc 1 part for replacing stock Pistol grip and flash hider do not count. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
goldenpony 61 Posted March 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 I might "cheap out" until I can convert. I have the US made puck (1 part). I could add the Phoenix Tech Field Series adj. stock with pistol grip (2 parts). And add a flash hider (1 part). 1 part for replacing puc 1 part for replacing stock Pistol grip and flash hider do not count. Really. In the Saiga.Com store the stock is advertised as 2 parts and the flash hider as 1 part. Has something changed? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HighPlainsDrifter 466 Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 (edited) I might "cheap out" until I can convert. I have the US made puck (1 part). I could add the Phoenix Tech Field Series adj. stock with pistol grip (2 parts). And add a flash hider (1 part). 1 part for replacing puc 1 part for replacing stock Pistol grip and flash hider do not count. Really. In the Saiga.Com store the stock is advertised as 2 parts and the flash hider as 1 part. Has something changed? It does say it counts for 2 USA made 922r parts. My question is how can it? The saiga-12 in sporter configuration doesn't have a Russian pistol grip to remove. Remember, the key to being 922r compliant is to have 10 or under Russian made parts. It doesn't matter how many USA made parts you add. What matters is how many foreign parts you take off. I'm not sure what the E-store means by that stock counting as 2 compliant made parts. That would be the case if you took off a Russian pistol grip and stock. I've been looking more and more into 922r compliance these past few days and all I get out of it is a whole lot of confusion. At first I thought there were 15 Russian countable parts on the S-12. Then I hear it's 13 or 14. There's also the issue of the muzzle attachment being counted or not. I personally don't get it all. I'm trying to wrap my head around all this. I'm pretty sure the advice I gave you back in post #41 is correct. That is if the S-12 has 14 countable 922r parts. Can someone else please help us figure this out? Edited March 25, 2014 by HighPlainsDrifter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunman1 1,753 Posted March 25, 2014 Report Share Posted March 25, 2014 I might "cheap out" until I can convert. I have the US made puck (1 part). I could add the Phoenix Tech Field Series adj. stock with pistol grip (2 parts). And add a flash hider (1 part). 1 part for replacing puc 1 part for replacing stock Pistol grip and flash hider do not count. Really. In the Saiga.Com store the stock is advertised as 2 parts and the flash hider as 1 part. Has something changed? It does say it counts for 2 USA made 922r parts. My question is how can it? The saiga-12 in sporter configuration doesn't have a Russian pistol grip to remove. Remember, the key to being 922r compliant is to have 10 or under Russian made parts. It doesn't matter how many USA made parts you add. What matters is how many foreign parts you take off. I'm not sure what the E-store means by that stock counting as 2 compliant made parts. That would be the case if you took off a Russian pistol grip and stock. I've been looking more and more into 922r compliance these past few days and all I get out of it is a whole lot of confusion. At first I thought there were 15 Russian countable parts on the S-12. Then I hear it's 13 or 14. There's also the issue of the muzzle attachment being counted or not. I personally don't get it all. I'm trying to wrap my head around all this. I'm pretty sure the advice I gave you back in post #41 is correct. That is if the S-12 has 14 countable 922r parts. Can someone else please help us figure this out? Dinzag already did......... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
goldenpony 61 Posted March 26, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 OK. Thanks everybody. I'm not going to bother you guys any more. I just won't do anything. I'll just wait until I am ready to convert this Russian bitch. I can just use my AGP mag until then and I'll be legal. After all, 922r is brought to us by the same geniuses that came up with Obama Care.I do appreciate the guidance. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HighPlainsDrifter 466 Posted March 26, 2014 Report Share Posted March 26, 2014 OK. Thanks everybody. I'm not going to bother you guys any more. I just won't do anything. I'll just wait until I am ready to convert this Russian bitch. I can just use my AGP mag until then and I'll be legal. After all, 922r is brought to us by the same geniuses that came up with Obama Care.I do appreciate the guidance. Let's finish this 922r, even if it's purely academic. All the information I'm posting comes straight from Dinzag's website. Saiga Shotgun has 15 parts, as imported. (1) Receiver (2) Barrels (3) Mounting blocks, trunnion (4) Bolts (5) Bolt carriers (6) Operating rods (7) Gas pistons (8) Triggers (9) Hammers (10) Disconnectors (11) Buttstock (12) Forearms, handguards (13) Magazine bodies (14) Followers (15) Floorplates Examples... You have a Saiga-12 shotgun. (15 parts) You don't want to convert it, but you want to run some 10 round mags or that new drum. You will need 5 U.S. made parts to make it a U.S. firearm since running a magazine with more than 5 rounds violates 922®. A U.S. made mag will be 3 parts, then a piston and a handguard will make it legal. -or- You have a Saiga-12 shotgun. (15 parts) You want to convert it to pistol grip configuration. You will need 6 U.S. made parts to make it a U.S. firearm since adding a pistol grip is adding a part from the list. Additionally if you add a flash hider, you will need 7 U.S. made parts. When doing the pg conversion you will have 5 parts right off with the fire control group (3), pistol grip and buttstock. Now I want to clarify. It should be pointed out that Dinzag say's you need a certain amount of USA made parts to make a Saiga-12 922r compliant. What really should be stated is that you need to replace a certain amount of foreign parts with USA made parts. There cannot be more than 10 foreign made parts on your build. Keeping all this in mind... If you want to keep in in sporter configuration you can change (and use the izzy mag)... gas piston (puc) disconnector hammer forearm (hand guard) Izzy floor plate If you want to keep in in sporter configuration you can change (and not use the izzy mag)... gas piston (puc) disconnector USA made magazine (3 parts) When you convert it you can change (and use the Izzy mag)... trigger hammer disconnector buttstock forearm (hand guard) That's 922r to the best of my knowledge. This is all off of information stating the saiga-12 has 15 countable parts. Good luck! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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