Zastava/Yugo M57 Tokarev

[JDeko 792]

Truth is I was looking at the M57 because its cheap and the 7.62x25mm is a powerful round. I actually find the weapon itself a bit ugly.

 

And its good to hear the R1s aren't being recalled.

Edited October 20, 2014 by JDeko

[JESS1344 508]

VR6,

  I WAS PERUSING A CANADIAN W-SITE, THE OTHER DAY, AND RAN ACROSS SOMETHING NEW, THE NORINCO P762, A CHI-COM P226 COPY IN 7.62X25.

 

  LOOKED PRETTY GOOD, AND AS I RECALL, IT WAS LESS THAN $400.

 

  UNAVAILABLE HERE, BECAUSE OF CHI-COM MFG.

 

 

   JESS1344

[Shandlanos 1,470]

VR6,

  I WAS PERUSING A CANADIAN W-SITE, THE OTHER DAY, AND RAN ACROSS SOMETHING NEW, THE NORINCO P762, A CHI-COM P226 COPY IN 7.62X25.

 

  LOOKED PRETTY GOOD, AND AS I RECALL, IT WAS LESS THAN $400.

 

  UNAVAILABLE HERE, BECAUSE OF CHI-COM MFG.

 

 

   JESS1344

Damn, I'd love to have one. Well, technically we could get around that with some ingenuity - send them in with a 20-something inch smoothbore barrel (no stock, just a long enough barrel to bring OAL to over 26") and a mag pinned to 5 rounds, that should qualify as a "sporting shotgun" per import regs and a "firearm" per NFA classification. Then you just manufacture pistol barrels in the US, swap 'em out and good to go.

[JDeko 792]

That Norinco is much better looking than the Yugo indeed. Are you guys saying you can't get them in America?

[Shandlanos 1,470]

Correct. Chinese rifles and handguns are pretty much categorically banned from importation by an executive order from 1994.

All we can bring in from China are "sporting shotguns and ammunition," and a variety of accessories.

That begs the question - where are you, if not the US?

[JDeko 792]

oh, i am in the US, tis why i was asking since i'd be willing to shill out the extra 90 for a pistol with a square back instead of the weird round one Tokarevs have

Edited October 20, 2014 by JDeko

[VR762Shooter 838]

VR6,

  I WAS PERUSING A CANADIAN W-SITE, THE OTHER DAY, AND RAN ACROSS SOMETHING NEW, THE NORINCO P762, A CHI-COM P226 COPY IN 7.62X25.

 

  LOOKED PRETTY GOOD, AND AS I RECALL, IT WAS LESS THAN $400.

 

  UNAVAILABLE HERE, BECAUSE OF CHI-COM MFG.

 

 

   JESS1344

 

I would love to get my hands on even an M70A but due to state laws where I am, it is a no-go. I can get around much of the laws with C&R but anything new manufacture is a no go if the AG here hasn't added it to the "Approved Weapons Roster". P762 looks nice but likely no way in hell it would be approved even if we could get them

oh, i am in the US, tis why i was asking since i'd be willing to shill out the extra 90 for a pistol with a square back instead of the weird round one Tokarevs have

 

I actually prefer the rounded. On a gun you would be holstering, makes it less likely to snag. One of the bonuses of my wife's hammerless revolver when being used as a carry piece

[JDeko 792]

i wish i could get with revolvers but i just aren't confident i could fire a meaningful round like a .357 or .460 double-action in an effective length of time accurately.

[BigChongus 765]

I agree with Jess. IMO you'd be better served by tracking down a used 3rd gen G19 and keeping it loaded with 124-135gr Gold Dots, Critical Duty, etc. They're not hard to come by for the low/mid-$300 range.

[JDeko 792]

This came to mind: if a 7.62x25mm round is at risk of over penetrating and hitting my across-the-street neighbors, what about my shotgun's 00 shot rounds and 1oz slugs?

[BigChongus 765]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-3-the-shotgun-meets-the-box-o-truth/

[JDeko 792]

So use 00?

[BigChongus 765]

That's what I keep in mine. Still an over penetrator, but slugs are that much worse. Like he said, and round that will stop a BG will over penetrate interior walls, but some are much worse than others.

[VR762Shooter 838]

Well I didn't mean across the street. If in an apartment, an x25 could penetrate a wall and hit neighbors in adjoining apartments

[JDeko 792]

too bad there was no "Box O' Truth" about the Tokarev, especially a "two walls and a brick wall" or maybe "two walls and two bricks" if somehow it'd get through the wall of my house and make it across the street.

[Shandlanos 1,470]

Well, you could buy $50 worth of materials and build yourself a couple of small drywall sections and a few brick wall segments. Then you just need that pistol in 7.62x25.

[JDeko 792]

yeah, but if it blew through two bricks and 4 drywalls i'd feel really dumb blowing the 300 on the pistol

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Ive seen tests of the x25 round and it has pretty fair penetration. Sure those are still around somewhere.

 

Only way I would consider it was if i had a couple of crates of the surplus sitting around from back when they were cheap as hell.

 

They do work well for shooting poor SoBs in the back of the head, Russian tested and proven!

[VR762Shooter 838]

I'd suggest looking up more calibers and getting additional info. You seem a little limited on info regarding effective calibers for self defense. There are plenty of affordable guns in better calibers. Even a used revolver in .38 will be a better home gun than the x25 and could be found for around the same price. Do some more research you'll be surprised at the available options out there

[JDeko 792]

I've done a lot of research actually. I don't really like revolvers because of the heavy trigger firing double action and/or the slowness of firing single-action as well the slow reload time. I've seen some good 1911s that were around 400 and was considering those until I spotted the Tokarev and researched it.

 

And this is where it gets odd: googling "7.62x25 vs. .45 acp" you get a lot of people saying the Tokarev is the better Self-Defense choice. But looking up "7.62x25 self defense" you get all the talk of the bullets passing through people without  bothering them very much and how the .45 is the much better choice.

 

Now HP rounds would transfer all that power into the intended target, but I am getting the impression that using FMJ 7.62x25mm rounds would be relying on the "most people who are shot with anything tend to just go away right after, because being shot is very unpleasant."

[Shandlanos 1,470]

There's a lot of bad info out there.

I recommend ignoring things like our opinions and doing the kind of research that doesn't involve reading other people's biased opinions - like ours - and instead looking for hard data. FBI studies are a great place to start.

[JDeko 792]

Well FBI data is that I think 70% of people who are shot with anything bugger off after, but 30% chance of getting attacked still is pretty bad.

 

Problem is that there isn't much hard data on the ol' 7.62x25 since its not a common round. I've heard that lumberjack is rather resistant to .45 acp rounds [thick clothes] so that shot my other idea to hell. Anyone here have opinions on .357sig or 10mm rounds?

[VR762Shooter 838]

.357 Sig is a hot 9mm and 10mm is a very powerful round with all the issues you see with powerful rounds (ie. recoil causing slower follow-up shots. Reason FBI reduced round charge leading to .40 S&W). Remember you have to find ammo to be able to defend with as well. Verify local sources have stock or will get stock on enough ammo that you can get used to the gun and ammo. Check online as well, see if you can get it cheaper or if LGS doesn't carry it

[JDeko 792]

This might be a really dumb question, but why would a Tokarev round do so much less damage passing through than an AK Round or a .308? the Tokarev already passes right through a person with way less charge and is all round and roly-poly like a bumble bee. why doesn't it tumble [as i imagine the rifle rounds do] and do all the dame other 7.62 rounds do?

[VR762Shooter 838]

Tokarev round is round nose not spitzer. It passes through with less tumble because the round is not made to do so. Same as a 9mm or most other rounds for pistols. They are designed for penetration and dumping of their energy more so than long distance controlled flight. Spitzer bullets are long range, high power, deep penetration bullets intended to tear through barriers before entering a targets flesh. That's why nearly all rifle rounds are considered armor piercing, they are designed to penetrate

[JDeko 792]

what i mean is that they are all the same diameter, so if there was a bad guy in front of me and i had 3 arms and shot him with a Tokarev, AK-47, and FAL, why would the rifles do more damage than the pistol if even 25mm will carry the bullet right through what extra is the 39mm and 51mm doing to the guy, why and how?

[VR762Shooter 838]

This is where the bullet designs come into play. The x25 is a round nose bullet with less weight and less ability to tumble. The bullet is fast though so it spins, tears through and comes out the other side. x39 is a spitzer bullet built with a point that causes the center of gravity to be off center. Once the bullet hits, the impact deflects the center of gravity causing tumble. Due to the speed of the round, this tumble and the effect it has on the surrounding tissue causes large wound cavities. The x51 or .308 does the same as the x39 just with a larger/heavier projectile and more powder in the case pushing it so it goes much faster. 308 also has a center of gravity that is different than the x39 so it isn't as prone to tumble as the x39. In the case of 5.45x39 the tumble that occurs in 7.62x39 is even more prevalent. Bullet diameter has only a portion to do with its overall performance, weight, powder charge, barrel length and bullet construction material can be just as important to it's power as the diameter

 

As a point here are 2 rounds in 308, one a FMJ and one a SP so you can see the difference a SP or HP round can have versus a FMJ:

 

Edited October 21, 2014 by VR6Shooter

[JDeko 792]

Ah, it was the center of gravity I didn't think of. I thought that a pointed bullet would make an even straighter path through someone than  a round one. That also explains why I heard that .308s over penetrate and are likely to make a clean hole through as well.

[VR762Shooter 838]

It's also why .223/5.56 is known to be an over penetrating round. The bullet was intended to fragment but doesn't always do so. Its a shorter round so the tumble doesn't occur for a while in a target/gel. The x25 round is short, doesn't tumble very well and also doesn't have a flat nose or anything intended to make it dump more energy once penetrating (.357 Sig does as well as .40) so you have to have it in HP or SP to get the full energy dump ASAP. This is where the ammo availability with 9mm is great. There are so many options that have a good bullet design you can find anything you like with all the options. You're bound to have a favorite. It really is unfortunate for the x25. I'd love to carry one. I can't find anything for defensive ammo though. Most LGS don't carry it and my online options are very limited. All I have been able to acquire have been surplus or S&B FMJ.

Edited October 21, 2014 by VR6Shooter

[Shandlanos 1,470]

.357 Sig is a great round - it's .40S&W necked down to 9mm. If someone sells a 147-gr bonded HP in .357 Sig (I bet Speer does), that'd be a hell of a defensive round.

Conveniently, if you have a firearm in .40 S&W, you can switch to .357 Sig with only a barrel swap - your magazines, extractor, ejector, springs, etc. all stay the same. .40 S&W practice ammo is cheaper than .357 Sig, so if you want to carry .357 for defense, you can relatively cheaply practice with ,40 with just a barrel swap. The recoil characteristics are nigh identical.

It's also a great reloader's round - you can form brass from cheap, common .40 S&W brass (albeit it takes some work what with annealing and trimming), and it uses dead standard 9mm projectiles.

It's also why .223/5.56 is known to be an over penetrating round. The bullet was intended to fragment but doesn't always do so. Its a shorter round so the tumble doesn't occur for a while in a target/gel. The x25 round is short, doesn't tumble very well and also doesn't have a flat nose or anything intended to make it dump more energy once penetrating (.357 Sig does as well as .40) so you have to have it in HP or SP to get the full energy dump ASAP. This is where the ammo availability with 9mm is great. There are so many options that have a good bullet design you can find anything you like with all the options. You're bound to have a favorite. It really is unfortunate for the x25. I'd love to carry one. I can't find anything for defensive ammo though. Most LGS don't carry it and my online options are very limited. All I have been able to acquire have been surplus or S&B FMJ.

That leads to an interesting idea - H&K experimented with spoon tip projectiles in 4.6mm high velocity rounds back in the day. The idea was that the spoon tip doesn't really screw up accuracy in flight, but once it hits a fleshy target it causes the bullet to yaw and tumble like crazy.

I wonder if 7.62x25 is fast enough to benefit from a spoon tip projectile. I'm guessing it isn't, but there could be some other way to make it tumble, maybe a hollow cavity with a free-floating copper ball? During flight, the ball would sit at the back of the hollow - once the bullet impacts a target the ball would slam forward, destabilizing the bullet and hopefully causing it to tumble.