magsite20 1,664 Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 I know at one point both Marlin and Ruger put out some carbines in 9mm that used pistol mags but they didn't stay on the market long. Guess for mass marketing it's not an idea who's time has come or wasn't then anyway. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted March 11, 2015 Report Share Posted March 11, 2015 I don't think it would take a lot of innovation. They use the mechanisms on all their full caliber rifles, on their pistols. Yeah think the only thing I could see would be getting the folding right. Couldnt see it doing it at the chamber but meh I aint that bright. I know at one point both Marlin and Ruger put out some carbines in 9mm that used pistol mags but they didn't stay on the market long. Guess for mass marketing it's not an idea who's time has come or wasn't then anyway. Marlin made a Camp 9 and 45, nice rifles but heavy as hell by today's standards. Ruger... well everyone was pretty pissed at them at the time so never saw any. The thing is for Home Defense/Travel I see nothing better than a PCC given the ammo now available just not much in the way of marketing ever done for that very large need. Everyone talks pistol and shoty but seriously put a good laser and light on a PCC and you got the upper hand on either. Opinions will vary of course. Speaking of travel, a folded S2k in the backpack, Glock concealed, some extra mags and things could be a lot worse and nothing really cries out gun here with plenty of room for other essentials. We have done it several times no problem at all. Wife can operate the S2K easily and she is 5' nothing so it's there but no real motivation to go after it I guess. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 Oh you mean folding like the KelTec... I would be happy with pretty much any kind of folder which worked with a good cheek weld. In fact, I prefer a basic side folder like the butler creek 10/22. It is solid, compact, and the gun still works while folded. If it had a thumb screw on it and a sliding cheek riser, it would be ideal. As for the ruger one... I used to long for the police version. They sold a SS model with a folder just like above. I saw one once in a gun store and it was great. A while back I investigated buying one and changed my mind. They are not just a scaled up 10/22, which I would be happy with. Rather the stock on the civvy model is integral to a lot of the mechanisms so replacing it would be awful. It renders basic maintanence a huge hassle. Look it up. I would much rather have a sub 9 or a sub 2K. Or a JR carbine, which currently is the most appealing of the category to me. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 I looked hard at the JR but just couldnt go that way for the purpose I have assigned to such. Could be a great little rifle with some thought and work. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/08/tyler-kee/gun-review-jr-carbine/ Was even looking at lever guns before Remington ruined the Marlins, very under appreciated design there IF its done right. Yeah I know there are others but the Marlin was a line that just did it so right simply due to quality of people making it (ALL fired by Remington BTW). Still hope to get an older one some day most likely in 357 or 44 with a revolver to go with it. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 marlins are supposed to be good again. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 Well let us hope so, but I have been known to hold a grudge.. cough* Ruger cough* 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 A couple of my online penpals from youtube kinda both broke the story about the decline in quality then did some good videos showing the comeback. lookup 1957shep and fortunecookie45lc in relation to marlin lever guns. Both of them had rough actions and obscenely canted front sights along with bad warranty work. They both showed how models on the floor now have things right again (well as right as they can be with shoehorned in extra safety mechanisms marring the guns.) I'd really like a lever gun in .357, so I have been keeping an eye on what is worth getting and so on. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted March 12, 2015 Report Share Posted March 12, 2015 Have a good bit of time so willing to wait and see how it goes. Thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 I know at one point both Marlin and Ruger put out some carbines in 9mm that used pistol mags but they didn't stay on the market long. Guess for mass marketing it's not an idea who's time has come or wasn't then anyway. Part of that was timing. Ruger never really attempted to market theirs to the public. They had an attractive SS model with a folding stock that they wouldn't even sell to the public, and a plastic sporterized version for the public in blued. The latter stock was hokey to maintain. So was the cop one, but it was handy. It looked like a 9mm or .40 S&W 10/22 with butler creek folder. They only tried to market that to police departments, although they would sell it to individual cops. The timing was right after cops in cali lost those famous firefights and decided they wanted something that could be described as an assault rifle with rifle power. That's when ruger was trying to sell a pistol caliber gun in a full size package. Bad timing. Also the same time that a lot of cops had serviceable but hard to love ruger P series pistols. No one is going to argue to get their department to adopt a companion carbine to the pistol they are trying to convince their department to replace. It also came out during the AWB, and there weren't as many hicap ruger mags floating around for cheap. If it had been a companion to a well loved pistol or was convertible to the mag of your choice? Well that would have been a lot more attractive. So far the big gun companies don't like to admit that someone might want to carry their carbine with another brand of pistol. So they handicap the carbines. Small shops like keltec and JR, etc don't have that problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
magsite20 1,664 Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 Yeah when these guns came out I was pretty much already into Glocks and ARs so I wasn't going to change pistols for a carbine that I really had no use to tie it to. I was shooting matches pretty regular and I knew they weren't going to let me shoot for score with a 9mm instead of a .223. There were a few gunsmiths that I heard could convert one or the other to work with Glock mags but it cost more than a new gun to have it done. I'd have never gotten the Mech Tech CCU it not for the stainless frame for the 24, I hated having an unused frame sitting around. I forget what I paid at the time but it was cheaper to buy the CCU than a pistol slide and barrel was going to run me. As I've said I think the Deacon will enjoy his new stuff, while not the perfect carbine a damn neat set up to shoot. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted March 13, 2015 Report Share Posted March 13, 2015 Was talking to a guy that makes youtube vids on his gun channel about the utter absence of gel tests done using PCCs. His answer kind of shocked me, most of them dont own one. Seriously? Yep And these are gun folks. I find that so very odd considering some of the stuff they obviously do own like falling block rifles. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 I've actually been seeing a few lately. But not so much with the vanila ammo. One of the things to be aware of is HP pistol ammo is very velocity depenant. Run it too hot and it over expands and under penetrates. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 I've actually been seeing a few lately. But not so much with the vanila ammo. One of the things to be aware of is HP pistol ammo is very velocity depenant. Run it too hot and it over expands and under penetrates. Exactly A condition one would hope to avoid with ammo designed for high speed, ie Liberty CD. One wouldn't think offhand a 300fps gain as bad yet some ammo does fail at that point. Yet the same thing can happen from a barrel too short, which is what started the discussion. Platitudes are always fairly useless, things need proving. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JESS1344 508 Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 I've actually been seeing a few lately. But not so much with the vanila ammo. One of the things to be aware of is HP pistol ammo is very velocity depenant. Run it too hot and it over expands and under penetrates. GUNFUN, TRY BARNES ALL COPPER BULLETS, OR GOLD DOTS, THEY'LL HOLD TOGETHER, AND YOU WILL GET BOTH EXPANSION AND PENETRATION, EVEN WHEN RUN FAST, ESPECIALLY THE BARNES. JESS1344 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
XD45 7,124 Posted March 14, 2015 Report Share Posted March 14, 2015 (edited) If you go with the XD version Well fuck a duck. I emailed them a few years back about an XD version and they told me there was no market for it and no plan to even think about thinking about it. So now I have to decide if they can kiss my ass for poo-pooing my question and then doing exactly what they said they'd never do... Or order the XD CCU I always wanted. Edited March 14, 2015 by Darth Saigus Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted March 16, 2015 Report Share Posted March 16, 2015 I've actually been seeing a few lately. But not so much with the vanila ammo. One of the things to be aware of is HP pistol ammo is very velocity depenant. Run it too hot and it over expands and under penetrates. Exactly A condition one would hope to avoid with ammo designed for high speed, ie Liberty CD. One wouldn't think offhand a 300fps gain as bad yet some ammo does fail at that point. Yet the same thing can happen from a barrel too short, which is what started the discussion. Platitudes are always fairly useless, things need proving. I have watched and read a bit of proving on this, mostly proving of dismal results. At least the people who are doing quality testing protocols are getting results which support eachother. There is not as much testing available in the carbines as I would like yet, of course. However if people test in a 9" or so glock barrel and get bad results we can extrapolate that a PCC is going to be worse. Similarly, we know that these aren't slippery bullets and shed a lot of speed over moderate distances. Therefore duty pistol rounds that suck at compact pistol velocities are going to suck from a carbine at a hundred or more yards. Shooting the bull .410 has done a few videos with the same bullet in an array of barrel lengths. Brass fetcher has done a few as well. Jess- Gold dots were actually what I was thinking of when I wrote that comment. Those are actually highly barrel length sensitive per testing I have seen. They actually sell at least 3 versions of the same bullet in the same weights. They are either varying the alloy or temper (or both) of the lead core, but they don't tell us which bullets are which. i.e. 9mm in the mid weight size is sold in a +P, standard, standard P short barrel, and as a component. They don't provide info on optimal velocity for the component. However, each of those listed above worked very well in one barrel length and rather badly in ones shorter or longer. I know I have watched tests of them in long lone wolf glock barrels and carbines which fit this pattern. Also, every test I have seen from several people of the golddots as loaded extra hot by underwood or bufalo bore over expanded and under penetrated. A fair amount broke up. They are good in the right gun, but they are picky. The golddot 2.0 or whatever it is called are doing badly in every test I have seen in any gun. It's rather baffing. One that I recall doing well in really short, duty size and carbine barrels was the federal HST, specifically standard pressure both 124 and 147. I have seen quality tests in all of the above with exemplary performance. Too bad I never see it in shops. Surprisingly another one that worked well in both compact and duty was the winchester defend 147(from train and defend line). I am not aware of any tests in long barreled pistols or PCC yet, but I am looking forward to it. This stuff is common to find in stores, "cheap", and seems to actually work as well or better than some of winchester's supposedly more premium products. Hornady bullets seem to be very specific to an individual type of bullet whether it is picky about velocity or not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfun 3,931 Posted March 23, 2015 Report Share Posted March 23, 2015 Yet the same thing can happen from a barrel too short, which is what started the discussion. Platitudes are always fairly useless, things need proving. Here's a bit more of that proving. I'll post it now and watch it in the morning. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TheDeacon 168 Posted March 23, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2015 And I placed my order for a 10MM Mech Tech for my Glock 21SF. The .40 and .357 work flawlwssly (200 rounds each) and cleaning them afterwards was only a minor chore. Now I need to start looking seriously at reloading, 10 isn't the cheapest round to be had. But all in all I am a seriously happy camper with these CCU's 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted March 23, 2015 Report Share Posted March 23, 2015 Liked this one also, shows the effect of higher than rated speed on two hollow points, one lead w/ jacket, the other copper. Seriously liking copper more as things go on. These carbines do give someone with stores of 10mm a very easy way to go PCC. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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